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01 June 2005

New Post

Quick-and-Dirty Calvinism

Bashing Calvinism is the latest fad in blogdom. My turn.

Three years ago Rob Schläpfer had the best Reformed website and book business bar none. It was the place to go if you were looking for material responding to Dave Hunt. Schläpfer's online magazine, Antithesis, was the best-looking and most consistently interesting website I knew—and it was thoroughly Calvinistic.

Michael Spencer, aka the Internet Monk, runs one of the most successful group blogs around. It's a lively theological discussion cast as a virtual tavern. The iMonk gained fame earlier this year by "outing" Joel Osteen's frivolous non-gospel. One of the iMonk's famous early blog entries was titled "Why Calvinism Is Cool." Judging from the network of links, the iMonk's group blog, The Boar's Head Tavern (BHT), has attracted a lot of Calvinist readers.

But last year with little warning, Schläpfer renounced all things Reformed and started giving rave reviews to almost every postmodern oddity and "emergent church" manual that the evangelical publishing houses could crank out. With a bit of fanfare, Schläpfer's mail-order company dropped some of the best Reformed books from their line. Meanwhile, Schläpfer was posting some fiery blasts both publicly and privately against Calvinists and Calvinism. (Some of them—including one sent to me personally—were pretty much in the spirit of Mark 14:71.)

Recently, the iMonk followed suit with a controversial essay, "I'm Not Like You . . . (Calvinists especially)." He closed it with a paragraph that began, "I am not like you. Every day I wander further from the safety of Calvinism into the wideness of God's mercy." Although the text is still in the process of deconstruction at the BHT, it seems like the iMonk and his drinking buddies have decided postmodernism is a lot cooler than Calvinism.

Schläpfer and the iMonk are by no means alone. More serious Calvinist leaders, including John Armstrong and Andrew Sandlin are saying similar things, albeit usually with just a smidge more subtlety.

Jumping off the Calvinist bandwagon and lobbing rotten eggs at the attitudes and culture of "Reformed" folk is clearly le dernier cri in the blogosphere and beyond.

Before we vivisect these gentlemen and their views (something I may eventually want to devote some bloggage to), I think it would be helpful to ponder why Calvinism, which seemed to be the flavor of the month not so long ago, has suddenly become so odious to so many of its one-time friends.

I have to say with all candor that I can somewhat understand the feelings expressed by some of Calvinism's recent critics. Sniff around some of the Calvinist forums on the Internet and it won't be long before you begin to think something is rotten in Geneva.

But I hasten to add that I don't think the problem really lies in Geneva, or in historic Calvinism, or in any of the classic Reformed creeds. I especially don't think the stench arises from any problem with Calvinism per se. In my judgment, the problem is a fairly recent down n' dirty version of callow Calvinism that has flourished chiefly on the Internet and has been made possible only by the new media.

Internet Calvinism and historic Calvinism sometimes have little in common. Consider:

  1. Fanaticism. The strains of hyper-Calvinism that are flourishing today are more harsh and more hyper than any of the historic hyper-Calvinists ever thought about being.

    If you doubt this, check Marc Carpenter's infamous website and read his ridiculous "Heterodoxy Hall of Shame." Carpenter is so hyper-Calvinistic that he has even labeled Calvin a hell-bound heretic for not being Calvinistic enough! He damns Spurgeon, Iain Murray, and even Gordon Clark (whom no one during his lifetime ever accused of not being Calvinistic enough).

    There are some well-trafficked discussion forums out there that look like they're having a contest to see who can be most extreme in their condemnations of Arminianism or most overblown in their affirmation of über-high Calvinism.

    There is a radical extremism among hypers on the Internet that is utterly unheard of even in the darkest corners of hyper-Calvinist history. At least the early hypers like Huntington and Gill had some profitable things to say when they exegeted Scripture.

  2. Non-evangelism. Among more mainstream Calvinists, there are certainly some outstanding men who are earnestly evangelistic (Piper, MacArthur, and even Sproul). But it would be stretching things more than a little bit to insist that modern Calvinism as a movement is known by its passion for evangelism. Where are the Calvinist evangelists? I can think of only one outstanding example: John Blanchard. (There are surely more, but at the moment I can't think of any other famous Calvinists now living who have devoted their ministries primarily to evangelism).

    Of course, I fully realize that the Arminian caricature of historic Calvinism as anti-evangelistic is a total lie. But one could hardly argue that evangelism is a key feature of modern Calvinism. Neither the writings we produce nor the conferences we hold focus much on evangelism.

  3. Polemicism. Today's rank-and-file Calvinists are more in the mold of Pink, Boettner, and J.I. Packer than they are like Spurgeon or Whitefield. In other words, modern Calvinism is producing mostly students and polemicists, not evangelists and preachers. That's because Internet Calvinism is simply too academic and theoretical and not concerned enough with doing, as opposed to hearing, the Word (James 1:22). To a large degree, I think that's what the medium itself encourages.

  4. Anti-intellectualism. This may sound like a contradiction of my previous point, but both tendencies contribute to the superficiality of Internet Calvinism. Want a sample? I recently received an e-mail inquiry that is all too typical of what I have observed for years among Internet Calvinists. Someone whom I do not know and whose name I will not divulge wrote me to ask:
    Can you explain in one paragraph or less how to make sense of the distinction you make between the "decretive" and "preceptive" aspects of God's will? Please don't give me a reading list of books and articles. One paragraph. One sentence if you can do it. Because the whole idea seems loony to me. So far, no one has been able to describe it in a way that makes any sense. I don't have time to read 10 volumes of dead guys' reflections in Puritan prose. And don't refer me to Piper's article on the subject. It's too long and convoluted. I just want a short answer.

    Right. The quick and dirty approach to untangling the mysteries of the universe. And every forum on the Internet, it seems, has at least one or two freshly-enlightened, beardless Calvinists who are convinced that their understanding of everything suddenly became perfect when they embraced the sovereignty of God. Some of them imagine that whatever difficulties they still can't explain can be easily solved by simply moving to a more extreme position.

The upsurge of Calvinism on the Internet in the 1990s seems to have spawned a large and unprecedented movement of jejune Calvinists who wear arrogance as if it were the team uniform. That kind of hotshot, shoot-from-the-hip Calvinism is ugly. I don't blame anyone for being appalled by it. I'm worried about those who think it's a good thing.

Obviously those criticisms are mostly generalizations, and they don't necessarily apply to every Calvinist on the Internet. But (and here's the hard part) I'm willing to admit that there have been times when every one of those criticisms could be legitimately applied to something I wrote or posted to a public forum somewhere. I'll especially confess to my shame that I'm too much of a polemicist and not enough of an evangelist.

Historic Calvinism is not supposed to be that way. Yes, Calvinism is virile; it's relentless when it comes to truth; and it's not always easy to swallow. But it is full of truths that should humble us and fill us with compassion rather than swagger and conceit. The best Calvinism has always been fervently evangelistic, large-hearted, benevolent, merciful, and forgiving. After all, that's what the doctrines of grace are supposed to be all about.

Until we get back there, some of the lumps the Reformed movement is currently taking are well-deserved.

And meanwhile, my advice to young Calvinists is to learn your theology from the historic mainstream Calvinist authors, not from blogs and discussion forums on the Internet. Some of the forums may be helpful in pointing you to more important resources. But if you think of them as a surrogate for seminary, you're probably going to become an ugly Calvinist—and if you get hit in the face with a rotten egg, you probably deserve it.


188 Comments:

Blogger Tim Challies:

Amen! It has long since been clear that the worst testament to Calvinism is a lot of the people on the Net who loudly proclaim themselves to be Calvinists. Of course the same is true of Christians in general.

10:45 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Greg Linscott:

Well Said, Phil! Well Said!

10:59 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger NeoFundy:

Right on...I have a great deal of affinity with Calvinism, though many do not include those like me in "the camp." (Amyraldian) I certainly have much less of an affinity with Arminianism. As a pastor, I have seen this "dirty" Calvinism IRL as well.

11:05 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Mark Loughridge:

A contender for "Best Blog Post of the Season"

Thanks

11:06 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Mark:

Very nice essay, it's refreshing to read a defense of Calvinism in the blogosphere.

11:11 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Travis Prinzi:

As one of iMonk's "drinking buddies," I'd say it is indeed ugly Calvinism I don't like. My final paper for my M.A. in theology is contra emergent and pro-reformed.

Solid post, Phil, except for the broad stroke of "the BHT guys are pomo now." Might be better to read the BHT as some folks tossing around ideas rather than a doctrinal dissertation on calvinism and postmodernism.

11:19 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger KP:

Excellent post, Phil! Thanks. I especially appreciate your alerting us to how this medium can encourage self-deceit that substitutes theorizing about biblical truth for embodying it.

11:21 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Scott Aniol:

This reminds me of guys during my college days who said they were Calvinists just because it was controversial at the time. There was no actual substance to what they beleived. They just said they believed in Calvinism, election, limited atonement, etc. In reality they were just controversial Arminians!

11:30 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger ct:

I think you give too little attention to this part of the subject:

"Yes, Calvinism is virile; it's relentless when it comes to truth; and it's not always easy to swallow."

Evangelism, Calvinist style, is virile and unapologetically a deliverance of hard truth. I know I was evangelized in this way. It seemed harsh at the time, but the seed gets planted and in my case it took root and grew in time.

The people you mention who have turned away from Calvinism were never "there" to begin with. They seek what comforts their carnal mind and what makes them popular in taverns and what not.

Let's also state something important: a Calvinist IS evangelizing just in the act of presenting the hard truth of the Word of God, either in writing or in word. Obviously some do it better than others (some also have more understanding of it than others), but evangelization is not only something that people with ministries and special tax status do. Individuals evangelize the faith every day, everywhere, in many ways. And Calvinists, if they are real Calvinists, are the most successful of all because we present the hard truth boldly and God's elect will hear it when it's presented that way.

Calvinists are good eveangelists because we know that our job is to proclaim boldly the hard truths of the Word of God and if God's elect hear it then it will have effect. We don't go about evangelizing like we are trying to convince or beg people to do something they would rather not do. We have no motivation or need to soft pedal or water down anything. We cast the seed and it takes root in soil it is meant to take root in.

We know that though we can plant the seed, only God can make it grow. Our job is to make the message known to God's elect (by making it known to anybody and everybody) throughout the world.

11:31 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Habitans in Sicco:

Travis: "Broad stroke"? "BHT guys are pomo now"?

Apparently you didn't read the same article I did. I was surprised at how generous his comments were about the BHT, especially compared to your blog's recent (but now conspicuously missing) comments about him after his review of NT Wright.

Maybe you guys are just sore because he listed you as "irritating."

11:32 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Frank Martens:

Uhhh I have a question (as I raise my hand :)...

And I quote Phil: "Today's rank-and-file Calvinists are more in the mold of Pink, Boettner, and J.I. Packer than they are like Spurgeon or Whitefield".

So, are you suggesting not to read books by A.W. Pink and J.I. Packer? Are they really that off base?

I've never read any of their books, I've heard a lot of good about their material. And the reason I ask, is because my sister is just now reading one of Packer's books, of which I was considering reading after she's done. However, I'd hate to waste my time on nonsense.

Thanks

11:37 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Kurt N.:

Actually, "Sicco", we're working as hard as we can to make it into the 'Appalling' category. Gotta set goals, y'know.

Also, the NT Wright was removed following correspondence between Mr. Spencer and Mr. Johnson. It wasn't some big secret.

11:39 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger ct:

Frank, I think Phil was making a distinction between polemical types and evangelists types regarding those names. I would be very surprised if Phil Johnson was saying that Packer or Boettner were not worth reading. In Pink's case he has been associated with some elements of hyper-Calvinism, yet having said that he is a very sound writer as well.

In fact, J. I. Packer is not even what one might call a hardcore Reformed - or Calvinist - type (I mean, he's an Anglican afterall). He is VERY MUCH worth reading. His Concise Theology is brilliant; his book on the Puritans is extremely interesting (A Quest for Godliness), and his classic, Knowing God, is a...classic. Boettner's Reformed Doctrine of Predestination is so valuable a intro to Calvinism, and so classic at this point, that it is probably getting to the point where it is more admired than read (I admit I've only read parts of it).

Don't forget Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion as well. Reading the actual thing by the guy actually named Calvin is an eye-opener.

11:46 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Paul:

As I understand, he means that modern calvinists tend to have their heads in books almost exclusivley... he's lamenting the fact that most calvinists nowadays are theologians rather than evangelists, and that there should be more evangelist calvinists than there are... I may be wrong though...

I only know Packer and Piper's books well, but they're excellent in my opinion...

Good post.

11:47 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Steve:

Phil, didn't take you long to figure out how to write way-too-long blog posts. :) Good to have you blogging, and I like the design.

11:51 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Josh S.:

A very hardy Amen came from my heart the whole time I read this!

11:54 AM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Remo:

A middle_of_the_road, "ear" tickling communiqué that begs the cultivation of middle ground amongst evangelicals pro and con, who take the Great Commission seriously, ala the Kentucky United Baptists of the nineteenth century. The Chancellor of one Houston University poignantly identified the issue of semantics within the "discussion" of Reformed vs. the_other_side on the issue of Evangelization. It may be high time to quit the Hatin'.

12:00 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger centuri0n:

Phil --

I keep reading this post from you and I think I am missing the point. Are you saying that non-evangelism, polemicism and anti-intellectualism are the reasons why guys like Schlapfer and iMonk are now angry at "reformed" advocates of a lot of stripes?

I think the problem is much worse than that in the specific cases you have mentioned -- and I say that because of the targets that these fellows and the blog-which-names-itself-in-Latin are not the hypercalvinists, not the Marc Carpenters, not the hacks who start threads entitled "I Hate Arminianism" but are men like yourself, and James White, and David King, and Eric Svendsen, who are not guilty of the sins you list, but are only guilty of challenging the off-the-beaten-path views of those who became turned off.

Your laundry list of "calvinist" sins are completely fair -- and there are plenty of examples of these kinds of Christian quackery (I may in fact be one myself). But to list them as you have here in a way which seems to mitigate some of the actions of the people who you list as being turned off of Calvinism/Reformed theology is less than convincing.

It's a strong stand for something, which is a good way to start a blog. It may be a demonstration of grace on your part, and God bless you for that. But at the same time, I think it does not look closely enough at the "reaction" to "calvinist" errors or those who have been willing to "address" them publicly.

12:33 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Habitans in Sicco:

Centuri0n: "I think it does not look closely enough at the 'reaction' to 'calvinist' errors or those who have been willing to 'address' them publicly."

I wouldn't worry. He did say he plans to devote some bloggage to the vivisection of these characters. Judging from the kinds of remarks Phil regularly posts in his annotated bookmarks, I'll be surprised if he lets anyone off the hook.

12:42 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger ct:

What centuriOn said. I think in my perhaps too long comments above I was trying to get at the same thing. The Discerning Reader guy and the iMonk types really don't like people like James White, and even the softer-toned Steven Hays types (both linked on Phil's blog), i.e. people who understand Calvinism and articulate it clearly and boldly. Calvinism is the Gospel, let's not be afraid to say that if we see it. And when the Gospel is proclaimed it convicts and stings and is hard truth. The carnal mind and man don't like the pure Gospel message.

12:42 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Mark:

Phil-as usual a great post. Ol Rob is affectionately known as "Cussin Rob Slapper" over at the FFF. He came on there and threw a real fit with Pappa Bear awhile back. Really unstable.

I hear you my friend. Even though I don't lay claim to the Calvinistic bent, I can go with you on this one. I've been beaten sillier than the poor sap who refused to call Calvin "Master" by the Internet Calvinist Cadets, for years now!

Very interesting, the Theological Controversy Du Jour crowd are going "Emergent" now. They're trading in their Forgotten Spurgeon for an Ipod an earring, some candles and incense and Brian McClaren. They use hip words like "subversive."

Just waiting for Emergent to hit the FFF. LOL.

take care man-enjoying the blog. I tried to do one but got cussed like a dog. And then ol Underwood Hoot showed up...

Mark (The G Man)

12:53 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Tim Enloe:

Frank (centuriOn), you are quite correct to observe that the targets of certain forms of criticism of Internet Calvinism (in the persons of the defenders you name) are not the weirdos like Carpenter, but some of the ones that Mr. Johnson lists in his positive category. Nevertheless, you know good and well that the arguments made against those gentlemen are precisely that THEY are the ones who are off the beaten path of the best of the Reformation.

1:08 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Kurt N.:

Calvinism is the Gospel

So...if you had had an hour to share with a group of unsaved people the Gospel of Christ, would you use time to go into the 5 Points?

1:14 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Kevin D. Johnson:

Heh...how amusing. A blog with this sort of name decrying what this blog and its cronies and colleagues are all about.

I think you ought to rename the blog "Fantasyland". That would be more accurate.

1:20 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger pastorshaun:

Reminds me of a story Jack Miller once told about a group of charismatics who were staying with him. During their stay they noticed Calvin's Commentaries on the shelf and began to read. Their response was telling. This Calvin is so different than the Calvin everyone talks about. He's so gracious and pastoral.

Amen! Thank you, Phil, for taking us back to the "first things".

1:21 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Matt Reimer:

Amen, Phil!

1:25 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Juice:

I'm greatly offended by this post! How dare you! How dare you group all of us "beardless Calvinists" as "unevangelical"!

I have not been gifted by God with the ability to grow a beard (and yes, I'm 30 years old), and your shot at us beardless Calvinists hurts deep in my heart. I look at people like you and Douglas Wilson and I realized I can never be the men that you all are.

:-) :-)

Justin Crandall

1:30 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Jim V.:

Looks good! Heard about your blog from Eric Svendsen's and James White's blogs. Look forward to checking it out from time to time.

1:53 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger metal dad:

thanks so much for this article. i hold to the doctrines of grace but more importantly i consider myself first and foremost a follower of Jesus Christ. thanks for reminding me of the need to exhibit His grace especially to those i may not agree with.

1:53 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Denny Burk:

Double up, AMEN!

"Lord, make me an evangelist, and make me fruitful for your glory."

Thanks for the great word, Phil.

Sincerely,
Denny Burk

1:55 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger John:

Though he may not be everyone's cup of tea, another Calvinist who's known for evangelism is D. James Kennedy.

Evangelism Explosion is used in something like 200 countries and is at the center of his ministry.

It's a little more pat and decisionalistic than I'd prefer, but on the other hand (to paraphrase D.L. Moody), I like the way he's evangelizing better than the way most other people are not doing it.

1:56 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger burttd:

The Discerning Reader guy and the iMonk types really don't like people like James White, and even the softer-toned Steven Hays types (both linked on Phil's blog), i.e. people who understand Calvinism and articulate it clearly and boldly.

Perhaps what is not liked about them is the fact that Calvinism seems to be the only thing they talk about, and the only thing said is how wrong you are if you do not agree with them. The idea that every conversation with every other believer has to be about Calvinism has gotten old for some of us who still consider ourselves Calvinist...

Calvinism is the Gospel, let's not be afraid to say that if we see it.

That is the problem. The Gospel is the proclamation of Christ's death for our sins and His resurrection, and the call to faith in Him. Calvinism says *how* that works behind the scenes. Calvinism is the theological analysis of the Gospel - it is NOT the Gospel itself.

The carnal mind and man don't like the pure Gospel message.

True. But it irks me how some Calvinists seem to revel in the scandal, and want to even add to it!

2:10 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger centuri0n:

To Phil Johnson specifically, I apologize that this is where Tim has decided that he can answer for what he thinks he's trying to do. I have written letters to him at communio in the past and have gotten varying levels of communication back from him.

Tim --

(1) It's disengenuous at best to use Phil's blog comments to broad-brush a retort that you will not answer in specific when questioned.

(2) Your opinion that calling Rome a church without the Gospel is "off the beaten path" is simply wrong. Even Charles Hodge in defending the acceptance of Roman Catholics with valid Christian baptisms does so (a) from a paedobaptist view of the sacrament as it applies to individuals in relationship to the visible church, and (b) from a clear statement that the formal teaching of Rome is out of bounds -- "as a papal body, she is not a church; i.e., her popery and all her corruptions are anti-christian and apostate".

(3) You posted this article at communio on 3/28:

http://www.communiosanctorum.com/?p=18

In it, you cited William Whitaker as saying, "we allow that it is a highly convenient way of finding the true sense of scripture, for devout and learned men to assemble, examine the cause diligently, and investigate the truth; yet with this proviso, that they govern their decision wholly by the scriptures." That's fair enough.

Your comment on this statement was:
{quote}
I am not sure that any Bible-loving Christian (and is there any other kind of Christian?) could have any sort of problem with Whitaker’s “proviso”, for unless one holds that all of divine revelation is not contained in the Scriptures (whether 66 or 73 books is, at this point, irrelevant), then it follows that the Scriptures must be the final verification of anything in the Christian religion since they are the very voice of God Himself.
{/quote}

The problem, of course, is that the Roman Catholic specifically denies this -- in the CCC, and in Trent (and I know naming Trent will be equated with intellectual violence). They do not deny that the Bible is the "voice of God" but, as Whitaker says, "that they govern their decision wholly by the scriptures."

Moreover, Whitaker is also known for a little essay called “THE ROMAN PONTIFF IS THAT ANTICHRIST whose presence scripture prophesied”, 1582. It's quite a read, and in it whatever “proviso” Whitaker was setting forth, it was not in pursuit of “communion sanctorum” with Rome: he thought that anyone who did not flee Roman authority would be subject to “eternal perdition”.

Thus my question: on what basis do you think you can use Whitaker's words in Disputations on Holy Scripture to support communio sanctorum with Rome when Whitaker himself expressly denies that such a thing is possible?

You might have something to say about (1) and (2), but (3) is the direct question and it would be interesting to see how you work that one out.

And completely on a different subject, my calendar says you are going to be married in about 3 weeks, and I hope the preparations are going well. Your success lies there in simply getting out of the way.

2:12 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger centuri0n:

Burttd:

You are right that, literally speaking, Calvinism is not the Gospel. And frankly I like your summary of the Gospel inspite of its 5-unpointedness.

However, which other descriptions of the Gospel are better in the long run for the church as a whole, the local church in particular, and the believer himself? I can't speak for the rest of the commentators here, but I was convicted by inches to Calvinism before I could tell you that there were 5 points, and every step of the way was a painful stripping off of my self-centeredness in relation to God. Being a Calvinist has made me a better father and husband and church member and employee and employer. (and some {though few in number, and identified as "persons of interest" by local authorities} might say it has made me a better apologist and evangelist and teacher for our local church)

So no: Calvinism is not actually the Gospel. But when you compare it to the other choices, it's got game.

2:28 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Kurt N.:

burttd: That is the problem. The Gospel is the proclamation of Christ's death for our sins and His resurrection, and the call to faith in Him. Calvinism says *how* that works behind the scenes. Calvinism is the theological analysis of the Gospel - it is NOT the Gospel itself.

Preach it, man.

2:29 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Aaron Shafovaloff:

"Within the Reformed world, a phrase which more of us should be aware of is 'cage stage.' Whenever someone comes into new-found truth (and this often happens with those first coming to embrace Reformed theology), the phrase refers to that period of time where the new (and usually young) convert should be locked up in a cage. That period of time is usually about two years. Of course, there are some pitiful cases that should never be let out, and there are many more evangellyfish who do not ever need to be locked up. But cage stagers, however many of them there are, can do a lot of damage. Ironically, they do much to make the theology they profess to love obnoxious to outsiders. Paul did teach, unambiguously, the doctrine of election. But he also told the Colossians, as the elect of God, to put on tender mercies." -Douglas Wilson, "Hither and Yon"

http://www.tulipedia.org/The_Dangerous_Pursuit_of_Reformed_Theology

3:18 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger ct:

"So...if you had had an hour to share with a group of unsaved people the Gospel of Christ, would you use time to go into the 5 Points?"

This was directed at me, so... To be honest, for me Calvinist understanding gives you the foundationa to evangelize effectively, but doctrine itself is rarely a part of a person's effectual calling (or regeneration). I mean, I experienced regeneration before knowing any true Biblical doctrine at all in a systematic theology sense. It was effected by hearing the plain Word of God read to me, by myself making the effort to read the Word of God complete, and, earlier to all that, by a bold and sharp rebuke I got from a suprising source when I made fun of some Christians once. (The rebuke was "Jesus saves", which is rather pointed and on-the-mark theology.)

But as a Calvinist, when I evangelize the faith, I find that the the basic "reorientating" that the five points force in you enable me to explain the Gospel to people in terms of vanity, worldly pride, and self-will vs. being God centered and acting from God's will. For me this is an effective way to present the Gospel to the kind of people I know in my life. But Calvinism also makes the evangelizing effective in that we don't beg people or try to convince by watering things down or compromising Biblical doctrine so as not to "offend" people's sensibilities. We are evangelizing God's elect. We can't know who they are, but we know the the pure Word of God and its message will connect with God's elect, if not immediately then in time. That is a Calvinist approach, and it is effective.

3:23 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger mxu:

Hello,

thanks for a good post. Just to let you know I've linked it.

3:32 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger ct:

"Perhaps what is not liked about them [White and Hays] is the fact that Calvinism seems to be the only thing they talk about, and the only thing said is how wrong you are if you do not agree with them. The idea that every conversation with every other believer has to be about Calvinism has gotten old for some of us who still consider ourselves Calvinist..."

This was directed at me, so... Do you think you'd have gotten anything different from John Bunyan or John Owen or Jonathan Edwards or Calvin himself? I mean, I sense in your complaint some fake drama. I really don't think you are 'tired' of hearing a guy who is an apologist always talking about Calvinism. Anyway it's a strange request to ask a Calvinist to maybe sprinkle in a little postmodernism or neo-orthodox 'understanding' into the mix.

Anyway, I never get tired of hearing people talk about Calvinism, especially if they are on-the-mark with it. Because it is BIBLICAL DOCTRINE.

When I said Calvinism is the Gospel obviously this is what I meant. Arminianism is not the Gospel, RCism is not the Gospel, JWism is not the Gospel, Mormonism is not the Gospel. Calvinism IS the Gospel.

I said: "The carnal mind and man don't like the pure Gospel message."

You responded: "True. But it irks me how some Calvinists seem to revel in the scandal, and want to even add to it!"

There is law in the Gospel, and the Gospel is supposed to convict! I don't care if when I boldly and clearly state the truth that 'some people' get turned off. That is part of what the Word of God is supposed to do. The Word of God, when proclaimed boldly and accurately (here is where Calvinism comes in) is lively and CUTS. It is not called a sword, a two-edged sword, for nothing!

I say: offend people! If it is the plain, pure Gospel that is doing it then so be it!

Those very offended people, anyway, might just be elect of God who are being delivered the pure, unwatered-down Word of God for the first time in their lives, and it will have effect in them in time!

That is what being bold about preaching the Word is all about. You don't worry about offending people. You are doing them NO FAVORS by not giving them the straight truth to begin with...

3:40 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger burttd:

xenophon's latest makes all my points for me.

Some calvinists only want to talk about Calvinism.

Some calvinists seem to think only those who believe in Calvinism are Christians.

Some calvinists seem to enjoy giving offense, instead of wishing those who do reject the Gospel could be saved.

All doctrine, no compassion. I seem to recall Paul had something to say about that - something about being a clanging bell?...

And you wonder why some people are no longer eager to identify themselves as Calvinist?

3:56 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger ct:

"Some calvinists seem to enjoy giving offense, instead of wishing those who do reject the Gospel could be saved."

Look at the above that you wrote and how you totally didn't grasp what was said. Giving offense IS INEVITABLE when you are preaching the pure Biblical message. BUT-- those who take offense could very well be elect of God! Just because people kick and scream (or pout and whine) or whatever when they hear the pure Gospel message for the first time doesn't mean it doesn't - or won't - have effect in them.

It is common human nature that we are usually fighting something most strongly just as we are closest to connecting with it. But the point it you have to preach the hard truth to have this effect. Giving people comfortable, compromised mush is doing them no favors.

You have a fundamental nonunderstanding of what evangelizing is about (and what the Gospel is, i.e. it convicts and is supposed to. There is LAW in the Gospel as much as there is law in the Old Testament. It's suppose to cut you and convict you. The Gospel doctrine of hell (from Jesus' own mouth) is supposed to upset you and outrage you and everything else. But if it is given to you uncompromised it is a seed that will potentially take root and grow in time.)

4:04 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger scott@fattriplets.com:

Phil,

Great Post and welcome to the blogosphere. I think your list of problems with many Reformed bloggers was spot on. I have often wondered how a person that is characterized (on the internet) primarily as being mean-spirited, uncharitable, ungracious and combative can call themselves a Calvinist. It seems to me that to truly believe sovereign grace ought to cause one to be humble and charitable, even in the defense of the truth.

Scott@fattriplets.com

4:22 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Mark:

To The Beardless Calvinists:

Don't despair. You may yet have hope. I'm thoroughly Arminian and Unemergent but I was beardless until 38. Then I managed a goatee that took a good month to grow, but no sides.

Hang in there. You may be predestined to whiskers and just don't know it yet.

Mark (The G Man)

5:45 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger metal dad:

these words from Albert Martin's pamphlet 'The Practical Implications of Calvinism' have been helpful to me when i get a little too full of myself and my theological preferences:

I say by way of application, do not talk about being a Calvinist simply because your itch for logical consistency has been relieved by Calvinism's theological system.
Have you seen God ?
Have you been brought near to Him ?
That is the issue
I remind you of the words of B. B. Warfield: A Calvinist is a man who has seen God.

The expression, a proud Calvinist, is a misnomer. If a Calvinist is a man who
has seen God as He is high and lifted up, enthroned, then he is a man who
has been brought to brokenness before that throne as was Isaiah. A carnal
Calvinist? Another misnomer! The enthroned One is the holy One, and He
dwells in conscious communion with those who are rightly related to Him
as the enthroned One and as the holy One. These two things are brought
together beautifully in Isaiah 57.15 where the prophet says: '
For thus says the the One
who is high and lifted up,
who inhabits eternity,
whose name is Holy:
I dwell in the high and holy place,
and also with him who is
of a contrite and lowly spirit.

6:48 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Julianne:

whooo hooo....glad to see this post. I'd read you, but I won't be near a computer for three months. Keep this up. With 40-50 commenters to each post, you're going to have to keep writing...
Soli Deo Gloria!

Peace,

Julianne

8:25 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Josh:

Good stuff, Sir.

8:27 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger johnMark:

Phil,

Great looking blog! I look forward to reading it. Hope to see you on another cruise one day.

God bless,
Mark

8:47 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger lycaphim:

Yes, I agree! Thankfully my Calvinistic training comes from Monergism.com :-p

8:53 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Ian:

Micheal's response.

10:49 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Mike Morrell:

As a former PCA-man myself, I jumped off the capital "R" Reformed bandwagon five years ago, but I have looked back.

Your suprisingly generous and informative entry surveys many of the feelings I've had; but I'd like to add one: Calvinists are frequently cold at best and mean at worst.

But, I have to say that I've begun to expeirence some Calvinist healing (not to be confused with sexual healing) at churches that are involved in both Reformed and Emerging conversations--places like Mars Hill in Seattle and All Souls PCA in my very own Atlanta.

And of course as you know, Reformed Baptists make more sense then Presbyterians anyway--folks like John Piper and Jon Zens. All this, and my best friend continues to be a PCA-Calvinist and an accomplished musician, too boot.

So, all of these places and people will continue to hold hallowed spots on my alternative Christian web portal. I, for my part, hold onto a pared-down Calvinism affirming God's sovereignty and our chosen-ness in Christ; but its probably too warm and fuzzy for you.

10:58 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Michael Spencer:

it seems like the iMonk and his drinking buddies have decided postmodernism is a lot cooler than Calvinism.

I am sorry to have to point this out, but Mr. Johnson has seriously misrepresented me.

There is not one post, nor one sentence on the internet, on any essay or in any statement I have ever made anywhere, that indicates I have rejected Calvinism to embrace postmodernism.

In fact, saying that I have embraced postmodernism is patently untrue. I have repeatedly stated that I do not understand, nor do I embrace, whatever the Christian Pomo movement is supposed to be about.

I made my position very clear in a post Mr. Johnson did not read. Read "The Imonk and Calvinsim Q&A" at internetmonk.com

Out of 30 BHT posters, perhaps Mr. Johnson can tell me who, other than Kent Runge, has identified themselves as postmodernists? I can tell him at least a dozen who disavow it, and most of us are just trying to figure out what the term means.

I've long ago lost any hope that any one of the truly reformed sheriffs care about what I've actually said, but I've told the truth on this one. I have NOT embraced postmodernism.

TO the guy who said I removed a post as a cover up: The post was removed after a personal apology and exchange of letters.

-Michael Spencer

11:11 PM, June 01, 2005  
Blogger Nutria Boy:

Good to see you on the blog barometer Phil! :)

12:03 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger Peter D. Nelson:

Nicely siad Phil I'm going to bookmark this blog.

12:05 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger Philip S Taylor:

Great post. That should be enough said on the subject of ugly Calvinism. To all Calvinists - lets start studying our bibles like our lives depended on it; lets start seeking to really know God experientially; lets start killing sin in our own lives; lets start encouraging other brothers and sisters; lets start living and talking the Gospel every day.

2:31 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger johnMark:

Joey Calvin (Spencer),

Phil didn't say that you literally claimed to reject Calvinism and embrace post-modernism. I believe he is saying that your position has shifted or is shifting from Calvinism to post-modernism. Though, maybe I am wrong.

Mark

4:49 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger Fred Butler:

I am not totally convinced that we can lay all the blame for a Calvinistic exodus at the feet of wild-eyed, internet fanatics.
I am still scratching my head over Rob's Howard Hughes like meltdown, but I watched the iMonk's train start to derail sometime ago. I can still recall one article he wrote lampooning the Answers in Genesis crowd for reading the Bible wrong and then attempted to argue that Genesis does not really mean what it says. I have read other articles by Spencer addressing different subjects in which he will say the same thing about reading the Bible in other areas. I figure once a person begins to fiddle around with the authoritative infalliblity of God's Word, especially its sufficiency, his or her hermeneutics will become a cage for any foul theological bird.

Fred

7:07 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger Luthersrose:

I appreciate your insights greatly Phil. As the Apostle Paul has said, "But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith" (1 Tim. 1:5, NASB). Cold-hearted orthodoxy can be just as damaging as empty-headed sentimentality. I know that I have been guilty of not bathing the message with the fragrance of humility and grace. Your words are a timely reminder that the "offense" should come from the message proclaimed--not the messenger perturbed.

8:04 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger Michael Spencer:

I'm a postmodern apostate because I don't agree with Ken Hamm and Kent Hovind's reading of Genesis? Wow. Now that clears things up.

OK, but I think we're gonna need a bigger room for this party, and it's going to include some people you people think are on your team.

8:15 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger BobRyan:

5 point and 4 point Calvinist Future Scenario:

This scenario “shows" why Calvinism is under such negative review in today's world.

It shows the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect when the time comes and “the non-Elect are finally Known”.

This scenario simply removes that “luxury” in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).


When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear - "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not.

(For it IS all about the saved in the end) without regard for those in flames

It is Calvinism blessing the fact that He chose You - that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.


(You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?)

Here we can see Calvinism's view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.

Bob

8:37 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger James Spurgeon:

Hey Phil, I posted a response in my blog. I would value your thoughts . . .

http://howlingcoyote.blogspot.com/2005/06/predestination-and-evangelism.html

I'm sorry if you have to copy and paste the link. I'm still learning html.

8:38 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger James Spurgeon:

Let's try that again: http://howlingcoyote.blogspot.com/

8:42 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger ct:

iMonk, it's like this: if you want to identify yourself as Calvinist or Reformed when you express neo-orthodox and postmodern sympathies then people who are actually Calvinist and Reformed are going to call you on it. Now I know you've already disavowed the Calvinist label, but you are still calling yourself Reformed. You're like the Reformed Catholics, you don't want to give up the light of the Sun altogether, but you want to reflect it like a moon, dully and distortedly. Of course Calvinists will call you on it.

As for 'who is a true Calvinist', start with the five solas, move to the five points, and perhaps separate the men from the boys (or fakes) by seeing who represents in their walk and talk and writings a true valuation for the Word of God as the very 'Word' of the Living God. It's rather easy to discern in people. When you exibit an easy, juvenile giddiness in mocking people who value the Word of God as being the very Word of God, and you easily mock people who are bold in claiming to hold to something called Truth, or who - gasp - take doctrine that represents Biblical Truth seriously then you expose yourself. So be it, just don't call yourself what you're obviously not.

Currently there are many people and groups and movements that want the legitimacy that the names Calvin and Reformed give, but they want it as a false front merely to garner attention or for worse motives, i.e. to distort Biblical doctrine and mislead.

They all engage in the same persecution complex when confronted. It's a pillar of postmodern and liberal thought that it is unlawful to confront a postmodernist or liberal, especially as they're just going about attacking foundations and distorting history, and engaging in good propaganda for their cause. How dare anyone confront them.

8:44 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger James Spurgeon:

Hey bobryan, I'm sure the people in hell feel a little bit better knowning that God loves them anyway, in spite of his just wrath being poured out on them. That's what hell is - justice, in spite of your attempts to portray it otherwise by picturing 7-year-old girls being cast in there.

Thanks for showing us the other extreme of what Phil was talking about - mean-spirited, cold-blooded, free willies.

Touche.

8:46 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger ct:

bobryan,

Here is a good, basic Calvinist saying for you to chew on:

"There will be nobody in hell who doesn't want to be there."

Period.

(For explanation see Edwin Palmer - Five Points of Calvinism; or see C. S. Lewis as he wrote on this very theme alot in many of his writings.)

What you are doing, Bob, is you are justifying your desire to maintain a man-centered view and control (rather than conforming to a God centered view) by claiming to be 'more loving' and 'more wise' than God Himself. This is a trait of the unregenerate, but not all is lost: just read the Word of God...humbly. Regeneration is effected when it is by the Word and the Spirit. God knows what is in your heart.

8:54 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger Steve:

The best part:

Historic Calvinism is not supposed to be that way. Yes, Calvinism is virile; it's relentless when it comes to truth; and it's not always easy to swallow. But it is full of truths that should humble us and fill us with compassion rather than swagger and conceit. The best Calvinism has always been fervently evangelistic, large-hearted, benevolent, merciful, and forgiving. After all, that's what the doctrines of grace are supposed to be all about.

That says it all

Excellent....

Thanks

Steve

9:09 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger the carnal christian:

what i don't get is the assumption that postmodernism is bad... or wrong. so many are quite gifted at throwing stones at it, yes, but i'm not sure they know much about what they're attacking.

as i understand it, postmodernism rests on the linguistic arguments of poststructuralism (viz Ferdinand de Saussure and Derrida's take on him). instead of just rallying against postmodernism, let's have some of you propose an alternative linguistic theory (or point me to the authors who have done so: you can email me at stephen.wilkins@gmail.com).

ciao,
s

9:20 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger scottj23:

I am a fairly new follower of Christ and a young man. I typically do a lot of reading of different blogs but never comment because I have so much to learn (not necessarily from blogs!)and enjoy reading others points of view. I must tell you, though, how discouraging Michael Spencer's (Mr. iMonk take note)blogs are for me as a new Christian. I would have addressed this at your blog but you no longer allow people to comment in disagreement of you or those that sit in your "tavern" and opine. I say this respectfully, Mr. Spencer, but also truthfully. I do not understand you. On one hand you write, "I am not like you" and disavow the Calvinist title and then when confronted you do the quick two-step and point out, well, I really didn't mean what you thought I meant. You are full of double speak. You seem to be quite mixed up and quite possibly not even know what you do believe. I know that you write everything off as "we are just a bunch of guys sitting around having fun" but you do not know who reads your blog and quite frankly, you guys at the BHT are offensive and ungodly with your sarcasm and criticisms. Your incosistencies are glaring. Just a couple of weeks ago you stated that you were on a ride home on the team bus from a baseball game and you offered an apology for words spoken against some who hold to Reformed teachings. You said that that would be the last time that you did such a thing. One week later, you are right back at it. My question to you,sir, is, was this a lie and why did you not stop when you committed to? One week later you are stirring the pot of division again by slandering, jabbing, and making fun of the "truly reformed". I need to ask who the truly reformed are. It is my impression that anyone who disagrees with you, slides into that category. You hurt people with your hateful remarks. Did you turn again to commenting on Reformed folks because you want to be read? I know you feel a desperate need to be a successful writer. Mr. Spencer, from what I have read from you, it is you, your attitudes, your theological confusion, your slander, and your hate slinging which gives ALL of Christianity a poor name. You need to realize that before you speak or before you write, you may be offending and breaking the hearts of those that Christ referred to as "the least of these". You need to stop the constant barrage of attacks which you undertake daily on men who disagree with you in the childish and immature manner in which you do. Perhaps it's time you shut down your imaginary tavern for awhile and come back to reality. It is sad that you seem to be such an angry and hate filled person. I will pray for you.

10:10 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger Kurt N.:

scottj23
At the BHT, we provide an explanation of who we dub to be the "truly reformed" if you click on the banner. The link is here.

The tavern exists primarily for her patrons. We closed down comments because of an unacceptable signal to noise ratio. Honest, thoughtful feedback is something that was lost in the process and we regret it.

As a young Christian though, if our discussions are causing you to stumble, take the much proffered advice and stick to other sites.

11:23 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger Joanna:

< The strains of hyper-Calvinism that are flourishing today are more harsh and more hyper than any of the historic hyper-Calvinists ever thought about being. >

In a nutshell-for the past several years I've been reading reformed books (modern ones like Sproul Jr.) and they just about killed my faith. After tears and much confusion (and even anger) I came to realize that Sproul Jr. and others like him must be hyper calvinists. I bagged up all my reformed books minus one or two to get them out of the house, never to return.
The reformed people I have met are arrogant and unloving-period.
I will take your advice Phil and read the historic reformed writers and give reformed theology another chance. Thanks for the idea. :)

11:29 AM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger tommy:

scottj23 - you take things way too seriously. The tavern isn't for everyone, I suggest not reading it if it bothers you so much.

An open challenge:
I defy anyone in here to give a definitive explanation of what postmodernism is. And you aren't allowed to say "relativism" or "nihilism", because if it were exactly those things then a new label wouldn't be necessary.

The word "postmodernism" is falling into the same category as "liberal." People have no idea what it means, but if you are one, its bad.

- Tommy Crawford

12:06 PM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger Travis Prinzi:

I think it's shocking that people honestly think they can determine the motives (want to be successful as a writer, hate-filled, angry, etc.) of a person who you only know through a few things he or she chooses to write on a computer.

You seem to be quite mixed up and quite possibly not even know what you do believe.

I won't speak for anyone else, but as a BHT guy, let me say this - I am sometimes quite mixed up and not sure what I believe. So I keep clinging to Christ as He is revealed in the Scriptures and trusting that, through solid study, discussion, and community, I'll learn better. Is that ok? Is it alright to be mixed up and unsure sometimes? Or do I have to sit in the corner and wait till I've got all the fine points of theology worked out? Can I ask hard questions? Raise difficult objections? Or is that too much of a threat? Here's a shocker, Reformed folks (and remember, I am one) - we're humans and we're all mixed up. Let's all take a deep breath and learn from each other.

12:16 PM, June 02, 2005  
Blogger ct:

An open challeng