tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post112614013613537729..comments2023-05-27T03:17:19.681-07:00Comments on PyroManiac: Peddling Mormonism as mainstream ChristianityPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126281816809545622005-09-09T09:03:00.000-07:002005-09-09T09:03:00.000-07:00This topic is fascinating to me. I spent 20+ year...This topic is fascinating to me. I spent 20+ years in the LDS church. Subsequently, the Lord saved me, I began attending Grace Community Church, sitting under the ministry of John MacArthur. I now serve in a small church in Massachusetts.<BR/><BR/>I have been shocked to see the changes in the approach of the Mormon leadership. Growing up, we never would have considered ourselves "Christians." Why? Because Christians had a "lesser knowledge" of the truth than we did.<BR/><BR/>Now, one has to have some knowledge of Mormonism to be able to pin them down on some differences. I had to ask a returned missionary several questions to get to this point: Was there ever a time when Jesus did not exist? He sounded thoroughly orthodox until I phrased the question in that manner.<BR/><BR/>As for salvation, Mormons completely redefine it. This is necessary because they don't have a 'hell' in the orthodox sense. 'Heaven' was obtained by virtue of our (alleged) faithfulness in the "pre-existence." Our degree of reward is what is being determined in this life. Only those--like Judas Iscariot--who have an absolute knowledge of the truth and work against it can go to hell. The Mormons call them the "Sons of Perdition."<BR/><BR/>The mainstreaming of the Church is the brainchild of Gordon B. Hinckley. It began with trying to mainstream the Book of Mormon and the effort has been escalated to other areas as well. As someone who was once 'inside,' this is a very strange change of course. Why would they want to be identified with those who have less of the truth (as they believe)? Because it will open doors that have been closed to them--like Christian publishing companies.Steve Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03489604355551059245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126271971307172132005-09-09T06:19:00.000-07:002005-09-09T06:19:00.000-07:00I wonder if the Mormons are in that process of joi...<A HREF="http://blogotional.blogspot.com/2005/09/can-religion-be-redeemed.html" REL="nofollow">I wonder if the Mormons are in that process of joining the mainstream?</A> If so, at what point in the process can they be said to be truly Christians?John Schroederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02917037602880789273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126211212469896062005-09-08T13:26:00.000-07:002005-09-08T13:26:00.000-07:00oh...by the way...I believe they are begging for a...oh...by the way...I believe they are begging for a lawsuit (slander), and I think after a couple of times of trying to make it clear that he is not in any kind of agreement with them, he should demand a retraction...or just take them to court.dogpreacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14126765017002042276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126210782884318902005-09-08T13:19:00.000-07:002005-09-08T13:19:00.000-07:00John MacArthur has been, and still is, one of the ...John MacArthur has been, and still is, one of the few orthodox christian leaders of the past 30 years who administers rebuke and reproof where needed, as scripture instructs. I was broken and let down over J.I. Packer signing the E.C.T. agreement, and others in the past years who have decided ecumenism is more important than Gods' word. I believe John does not truly like (salivate over) these confrontations, but there is not a chance that he will shrink back from anyone who is subverting the cross of Christ with false doctrine, or 'another gospel'. Now that is a man with a fire inside (a la Jeremiah), and obviously some has rubbed off on the 'Pyromaniac'. Thanks...I am...<BR/>Grateful For Grace,<BR/>The Dogpreacherdogpreacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14126765017002042276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126204345549417342005-09-08T11:32:00.000-07:002005-09-08T11:32:00.000-07:00The issue of Mouw and what he (among other people)...The issue of Mouw and what he (among other people) has said is allot bigger than a few statements mad in a conference setting. He is part of an "on going discussion between evangelicals and Mormonism". The point is not to find common ground and compromise Gospel, but rather to find common ground to begin talking about what is real Gospel, as opposed to LDS falsehood. Right or wrong, and weather you agree or not, these are his *stated* intentions.<BR/><BR/>Sharing the Gospel (whatever way you choose to go about it) with LDS people is hard. I live in Utah, and I tell you it is hard. I don't agree with all of Mouw's methods, but I do applaud his efforts to engage in a difficult task.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03032191110021982487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126202016093216252005-09-08T10:53:00.000-07:002005-09-08T10:53:00.000-07:00BAG, (1) nowhere did I explicitly “implicate the w...BAG, (1) nowhere did I explicitly “implicate the whole institution [Fuller] as modalist.” For the record: I, Jonathan Moorhead, do in no way accuse Fuller Seminary as being a Modalist institution. However, they do employ professors who are sympathetic to Modalists, Mormons, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, etc.<BR/><BR/>(2) I think Roebeck’s comments (my above comments) speak for themselves, and Mouw’s comments on Mormonism should be read by everyone here at <A HREF="http://www.beliefnet.com/story/156/story_15656_1.html" REL="nofollow">this Belief.net link</A>.<BR/><BR/>Sample of Mouw: <A HREF="http://www.beliefnet.com/story/156/story_15656_2.html?rnd=453" REL="nofollow">I personally take great encouragement from words that Joseph Smith uttered on the occasion of the founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in April of 1830: “we know,” Joseph said, “that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.” And then he added: “And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, and we know also that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength.”</A><BR/><BR/>Does Mouw really think there is a 1-1 correspondance between the Christian and Mormon conception of the terms he is using? Some of my friends say Mouw is too smart to make such a naïve error, but I cannot think of any other explanation.Jonathan Moorheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03687367307942260277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126200022774898882005-09-08T10:20:00.000-07:002005-09-08T10:20:00.000-07:00Bobby:It's rather curious how easily you dismiss t...Bobby:<BR/><BR/>It's rather curious how easily you dismiss the problem of a faculty member at a supposedly evangelical seminary who "has modalist leanings." Allow me to answer you by adapting something you yourself recently said at your blog:<BR/><BR/>They paid for this message to be taught in their classrooms--denying that they tacitly affirm it is like a jurisprudence tactic in the courtroom when the defense wants to attack the credibility of a prosecution witness, they blurt out some damaging personal information, knowing full well the judge will "strike that from the record", but their message has already gotten out there and into people's minds--whether or not there is a disclaimer or been "striken from the record."Habitans in Siccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13666311435942322569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126197367375285222005-09-08T09:36:00.000-07:002005-09-08T09:36:00.000-07:00Jonathan, can I go and see it anyway? I can't beli...Jonathan, can I go and see it anyway?<BR/><BR/> I can't believe Christians aren't storming christian bookshops and raiding the PDL stand shouting 'Edify me!, Edify me!'. It happens all the time round here...Kayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14873728356115837593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126196417382940472005-09-08T09:20:00.000-07:002005-09-08T09:20:00.000-07:00The same holds true for the movie industry. After ...The same holds true for the movie industry. After Hollywood witnessed evangelical dollars being poured into Gibson's <EM>Passion</EM> don't think that <EM>The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe</EM> is coming out for your edification.Jonathan Moorheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03687367307942260277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126195776807025782005-09-08T09:09:00.000-07:002005-09-08T09:09:00.000-07:00Hi Centurion,Hey, if Rick Warren and Bruce Wilkers...Hi Centurion,<BR/><BR/>Hey, if Rick Warren and Bruce Wilkerson can make hundreds of millions of dollars, Millet's no fool. "Christians" will buy anything....except the truth. No wonder they don't sell much of Spurgeon--if they even KNOW who Spurgeon is.<BR/><BR/>Now, I'll go read my Prayer of Jabez book while I eat chocolate off my Purpose Driven plate.Denisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14770822482205703050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126195574443248912005-09-08T09:06:00.000-07:002005-09-08T09:06:00.000-07:00You're right Steve re: ECPA. The enemy is no fool....You're right Steve re: ECPA. The enemy is no fool. We've allowed the door wide open starting a few decades ago with the change of heart re: the RCC. Now 'we' accept Oneness Pentecostals as 'brothers'; the Trinity isn't a die-on-the-hill issue, etc. Even the Parable bookstores sell books promoting Buddhism, Hinduism, New Age, Trans-sexuality, Homosexuality, and Roman Catholicism. I'm not making this up.<BR/><BR/>Interestingly, as I recall, Joseph Smith made up Mormonism in part, because he figured all the denominations of Christianity were wrong (correct me if I'm mistaken here). I think it was the same with the JW's. Now both are trying desperately to wiggle into 'mainline Christianity' and they are welcomed with open arms. Why not? "We" already accepted them on a political basis,showing how much "we" are willing to compromise.<BR/><BR/>This is making me sick just thinking about it, let alone typing it. I think I need some chocolate now.Denisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14770822482205703050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126193906139972602005-09-08T08:38:00.000-07:002005-09-08T08:38:00.000-07:00Oh, and another thing, this wouldn't be a problem ...Oh, and another thing, this wouldn't be a problem if evanjellybeans had any grounding in their own theology and doctrine. When you reduce everything down to the level of 'If you believe in Jesus, you're alright with me', why on earth would you have a problem with a mormon?<BR/><BR/>p.s. I love the word verification thing.. it's like getting an bonus puzzle to solve everytime you post...Kayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14873728356115837593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126193522017270972005-09-08T08:32:00.000-07:002005-09-08T08:32:00.000-07:00Wider audience, Centuri0n. Partly, no doubt, for t...Wider audience, Centuri0n. Partly, no doubt, for the untapped market potential, and partly to be able to recruit by stealth.<BR/> My husband faces an interesting situation at work, actually, involving a Christadelphian, another one of these 'start-as-the-only-true-church-and-then-cozy-up' groups. This man is part of the Christian Union, and is even allowed to lead studies occasionally. My husband didn't initially know what a Christadelphian was (I'm the one who evangelizes cult members in this house) and even though he has explained this to the leadership, people are so wooly there, they don't seem to care. Hubby has decided on the up-hill battle of trying to correct all the little bits of misdirection that come from this guy, but he's already managed to bag a girlfriend from the whole debacle. (The Christadelphian that is, not my husband.)<BR/><BR/> It's a whole lot easier to sheep-steal than to do that tiresome door-to-door thang...Kayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14873728356115837593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126192129724643222005-09-08T08:08:00.000-07:002005-09-08T08:08:00.000-07:00Phil --I have been thinking about Millet's book an...Phil --<BR/><BR/>I have been thinking about Millet's book and the Mormon effort to main-strem their cult since the title came out. There is only one question I cannot seem to reason out, and mybe you or the readers of PyroManiac can help me out here.<BR/><BR/>Why would or should the LDS church seek to become "one" with mainstream evangelical Christianity? That is to ask, what do they gain by fellowship with those whom their earliest prophets have called "false churches"?<BR/><BR/>I simply cannot undestand why they would want to become more like what their founders rejected more than a century ago.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126189816384957082005-09-08T07:30:00.000-07:002005-09-08T07:30:00.000-07:00(1) I know MacArthur’s “Free Grace” opponents are ...(1) I know MacArthur’s “Free Grace” opponents are going to love this one. In their mind, this will be another proof text that he teaches works salvation.<BR/><BR/>(2) It’s a Fuller thing. Another cult desiring evangelical standing is the United Pentecostals (Modalists that deny the Trinity). <A HREF="http://jmoorhead.blogspot.com/2005/07/concluding-modal-evangelical-critique.html" REL="nofollow">Mel Roebeck of Fuller Theological Seminary has an earnest expectation that both sides of the issue will exchange apologies in the future. He comments, “We’ve been calling each other names since 1916, . . . . It may take years, but we need to start arguing out our differences.” </A> It looks like Richard Mouw is in good company.<BR/> <BR/>(3) “<STRONG>Trinity</STRONG> Broadcast Network” also embraces non-Trinitarians! <A HREF="http://jmoorhead.blogspot.com/2005/07/concluding-modal-evangelical-critique.html" REL="nofollow">TBN has been a, if not the, major purveyor of this trend. During a TBN broadcast in March of 1999, Trinitarian Bishop Clarence McClendon and Bishop Noel Jones (an open proponent of Oneness Pentecostalism; and brother of Grace Jones [of James Bond fame]) engaged in a discussion on how to have unity amidst their views, and to learn from each other despite these differences. Jones said,<BR/><EM>And then I’m going to become so Oneness in my presentation that I eliminate the revelatory distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (Okay) And if I’m fighting Oneness, I’ve become so extreme in my attitude that I make three Gods, you see so, so, we go from one extreme to the other extreme, instead of coming together on the premise that I need your theology and you need my theology (C. M. "absolutely") to round [sic] the body of Christ (C. M. "absolutely"). So, let’s sit down together and let’s restate the Godhead in terms that are cohesive, comprehensiveable [sic] so that all of us can grasp it. Then, after we baptize and after people receive the Holy Spirit, then let’s get up and do what Romans tells us to do to: transform people by the renewing of their minds (claps from audience)</EM>. </A><BR/><BR/>(4) I think Renee and Campi hit the nail on the head by mentioning $$$. This is one reason why <A HREF="http://jmoorhead.blogspot.com/2005/07/t-d-jakes.html" REL="nofollow">T.D. Jakes</A> and <A HREF="http://jmoorhead.blogspot.com/2005/07/tommy-tenney.html" REL="nofollow">Tommy Tenney</A> don’t want to be exposed, and why Mormons want to be accepted.Jonathan Moorheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03687367307942260277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126189747604237802005-09-08T07:29:00.000-07:002005-09-08T07:29:00.000-07:00Phil,Excellent post.You hit the nail on the head. ...Phil,<BR/><BR/>Excellent post.<BR/><BR/>You hit the nail on the head. Mormonism has been making great strides to try to fit in within mainstream Christianity for some time now. Most of them don't understand why they are not a Christian and more and more Christians are falling into the same trap.<BR/><BR/>A few years ago we had a Temple opening in Richland Washington. There were several groups that met together to hand out gospel tracts and information on Mormonism. We received many accusations of not loving the Mormons from the "Christians" up the street, that just happened to be providing the Temple with overflow parking, than we did from the Mormons. Most churches in the area avoided the conflict for fear of being unloving.<BR/><BR/>I hope that Christians soon wake up to the fact that Mormonism is still a cult and they need the Gospel. Gently confronting a Mormon with the Truth of the Gospel is true Love.<BR/><BR/>JerodJRODFOSShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00222361976618386437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126188361677050052005-09-08T07:06:00.000-07:002005-09-08T07:06:00.000-07:00Dear Phil:This is nothing more than a publisher an...Dear Phil:<BR/><BR/>This is nothing more than a publisher and an author trying to generate publicity to market a book that is in desperate need to legitimize its theological error as Christian mainstream.<BR/><BR/>I don't know anyone who takes Millet's claim seriously that he finds affinity with John MacArthur. John has always been a champion of the faith; Millet is a cultist who needs regeneration; Eerdmans' needs repentance; and the body of Christ needs discernment.<BR/><BR/>SJ Camp<BR/>2 Cor. 4:5SJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126180546170079782005-09-08T04:55:00.000-07:002005-09-08T04:55:00.000-07:00Me too! Me too! I have read and heard John McArthu...Me too! Me too! I have read and heard John McArthur's materials. I'll take his over any writing of any member of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" any day.<BR/><BR/>The whole key is, "What do you do with Jesus?" If He is Part two of the Godhead and the John 1 Creator, then you might be mainstream. If not, you are not. Not even close.Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09693381971064363612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126172866780092792005-09-08T02:47:00.000-07:002005-09-08T02:47:00.000-07:00I've just posted an essay that addresses some of t...I've just posted an essay that addresses some of the things Phil raises:<BR/><BR/>http://one-salient-oversight.blogspot.com/2005/09/evangelicalism-begins-to-crack-apart.htmlNeil Cameron (One Salient Oversight)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03143948543305522865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126172091394721092005-09-08T02:34:00.000-07:002005-09-08T02:34:00.000-07:00What I find remarkable is that these Mormon apolog...What I find remarkable is that these Mormon apologists don't realize just how <I>shallow</I> it makes their religion appear. They're more concerned with how Mormonism <I>looks</I> than what it actually <I>teaches</I>. The spin is far more important than the substance. Just think: if <I>you</I> happened to believe that the universe has existed eternally, that there are myriad gods, that these gods are wholly material beings, and that you have the potential to become one of these gods through moral effort, then why on earth would you want to encourage the notion that your faith is just a variation on a religion that has historically <I>repudiated</I> all these claims -- unless perhaps you were <I>embarrassed</I> by them? Why else would you want to play down the most central and distinctive claims of your faith? (Sadly, one might ask these questions of more than a few evangelical leaders as well.)James Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08026082657858307342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126170260615155012005-09-08T02:04:00.000-07:002005-09-08T02:04:00.000-07:00Is this a reverse version of 'poisoning the well'?...Is this a reverse version of 'poisoning the well'? Is there a fancy debate term for that? Or is it just called name-dropping?<BR/> It does interest me that a lot of these cults started off pointing out that they were the only true believers and are now bending over backwards to shyow they really are part of the mainstream, honest...<BR/> You see it with Roman Catholicism and the Mormons.. what next, are Jehovahs Witnesses going to start encouraging Christian bookshops to stock the NWT?Kayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14873728356115837593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126167267568426162005-09-08T01:14:00.000-07:002005-09-08T01:14:00.000-07:00Very interesting and somewhat disturbing. I don't ...Very interesting and somewhat disturbing. I don't see how Christianity, which is based on the risen Christ and has transformed millions of people and changed the world can be reconciled with Mormonism which is based on the lies of a village idiot and inspired 'Battlestar Galactica.'Theteakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04607910963492143603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126163706404181382005-09-08T00:15:00.000-07:002005-09-08T00:15:00.000-07:00YnottonY: Thanks.YnottonY: Thanks.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126158157752737992005-09-07T22:42:00.000-07:002005-09-07T22:42:00.000-07:00Open theism today, Mormonism tomorrow... next week...Open theism today, Mormonism tomorrow... next week??Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight)https://www.blogger.com/profile/03143948543305522865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126155212334965612005-09-07T21:53:00.000-07:002005-09-07T21:53:00.000-07:00Could I possibly speculate that while the Mormon's...Could I possibly speculate that while the Mormon's are seeking to be included into the evangelical mainstream, and the main-stream media would certainly lump them in with evangelicals because, for the most part, they are politically conservative, it seems that the modern lay-person knows very little about what Mormon's really believe, but knows Mormon people. Therefore they are less likely to dismiss them as being a cult because "they are nice good folks." I have a few friends that think Mormon's are okay, merely because they talk about Jesus, they seemingly worship Jesus, and they evangelize for Jesus. So they see them as just another Christian denomination. That being said I believe we need to do a better job of teaching the truth of who Christ is and pointing out the heresy that Mormonism really is. Our people need to see that Mormonism is a cult, and be warned of it. Am I right on that, or am I missing something?Jeremyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10214901410467256904noreply@blogger.com