tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post113748539185164220..comments2023-05-27T03:17:19.681-07:00Comments on PyroManiac: Karaoke worshipPhil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-72939446264892163762008-10-07T08:34:00.000-07:002008-10-07T08:34:00.000-07:00BillyG:Read the post itself. It answers all your q...<B>BillyG:</B><BR/><BR/>Read the post itself. It answers all your questions.<BR/><BR/>What part of "'Worship' designed primarily to entertain or amuse people is not even true worship of God" do you not understand?<BR/><BR/>And for the fortieth or fiftieth time, this post is not about using "technology," music tracks, microphones, or toenail polish. It's not about whether you drive or walk or skateboard to church. It's about sponsoring fun 'n' games in church and calling that "worship."<BR/><BR/>The problem is that the minute you turn your corporate singing into a karaoke contest, you <I>don't</I> "have God as focal point" anymore.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-46241938544181914372008-10-07T02:18:00.000-07:002008-10-07T02:18:00.000-07:00Why would the use of Karaoke be wrong? Isn't simpl...Why would the use of Karaoke be wrong? Isn't simply using the music of someone else performance? When you worship live without a Karaoke backing track aren't you still using someone elses lyrics and music? Oh of course, it doesn't apply if it is your own music. So what is the difference? Is it technology, since there was not Karaoke technology in the early days of our Lord? If that's true than we should also get rid of the shure microphones, amplifiers, multi-instrument keyboards, electric guitars, effect pedals and the whole lot. Then when we go to chruch, out reachs, or preach to our neighbors, lets all walk since there were no cars either.. As long as you have God as focal point then it should not matter what or how the music is played while you sing praise and worship to HIM.billyghawaiihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02469657875880893116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-70073482846008099742008-08-31T05:52:00.000-07:002008-08-31T05:52:00.000-07:00I want to refer to Tim's point where he quotes fro...I want to refer to Tim's point where he quotes from Romans: "present your bodies as a LIVING sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service of worship". <BR/>My point is that worship should be an EVENT (a "now"), that is, a living thing (Romans above). No worship event or element of that event can be living if it is imported from another (PAST) event (which is now DEAD). So can you have a canned event? I think not.<BR/>Keep it living, if a little squeaky and off key. Worship as an event opens heaven, Worship in a can shuts it up.wargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17014400350656921423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-44126715310324694962008-06-18T17:03:00.000-07:002008-06-18T17:03:00.000-07:00c dubbs said, "However, I do think it's a bit cons...c dubbs said, "However, I do think it's a bit conservative to suggest that preaching is the ONLY way to present the gospel." and... "as a writer, I'm left out of church and can't get involved simply because the church only wants teachers or preachers. And that means the only place I can use my gifts tends to be in the secular world."<BR/><BR/>Romans 10:14 says, "How then will they call on Him in whom they have no believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a"...talented musician?...a great actor?...a fabulous script? No!..."without a PREACHER"<BR/><BR/>Furthermore..."the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message PREACHED TO SAVE those who believe" (1 Cor 1:21)<BR/><BR/>If we could reach people through plays, song, dance or any "talents" of our own, we could then boast and give glory to ourselves...but we preach Christ and Him crucified alone to give Him all the glory. Paul was a well educated man, yet he put all that aside and came in weakness to show and magnify the power of the Word of God, the power to pierce the heart and save men from sin. (Hebrews 4:12; 1 Cor 2:1-5)Pitbull78https://www.blogger.com/profile/10510288773845470403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1163371065063824342006-11-12T14:37:00.000-08:002006-11-12T14:37:00.000-08:00It is interesting to see so many judging the heart...It is interesting to see so many judging the hearts of others by the quality of his or her singing or the method by which it is accomplished. First of all, for all who are apparently Karaoke ignorant, most Karaoke singers in (dare I say it?) bars are very talented and practice frequently. It is generally good clean fun. Secondly, IF a church uses a Karaoke method...which sinful though it sounds only is printed/projected words and <I> canned </I> music... is there a possibility that the person who goes up to sing may just have the joy of the Lord in his or her heart and want to express it with singing...even if that singing isn't very good? Is it possible that others in the congregation or "audience" can be blessed by hearing another sing a song unto the Lord? And what ever happened to Make a joyful<B> noise</B> unto the Lord? To any Karaoke worshippers out there, I say "BRAVO"! Raise your voices up to the Lord...with the words in front of you. It gives you the freedom to raise your hands to Him also. Don't be intimidated by others who, when confronted with a form of worship that they so obviously know nothing about, condemn it as evil rather than allowing others to express their praise to the Lord. Sing, sing, sing. Sing praises to the Lord, anyway you can. Let your joy in the Lord spill over onto others as you boldly come forward to proclaim your love for Him in song. Let your singing be an outward sign of your love. I think when I am done writing this, I'll check online and see where I can buy hymns or worship songs for a karaoke machine. It sounds like a glorious and uplifting way to bond a congregation in worship to <BR/>God.zzmarlynnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06586067107521527952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1160868619789793872006-10-14T16:30:00.000-07:002006-10-14T16:30:00.000-07:00At Least it is not as bad as a dj leading which I ...At Least it is not as bad as a dj leading which I have seen!!<BR/>Domdeltadomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12936093722698336484noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1153253157942031702006-07-18T13:05:00.000-07:002006-07-18T13:05:00.000-07:00I am a professional church musician, and I am well...I am a professional church musician, and I am well aware of the God-given power of music to lead people to praise, prayer, reflection, confession, repentance, and forgiveness. I am also aware of the ability of music to lead to the baser elements of self-centered narcissism, and divisiveness. Where is self- sacrifice in contemporary worship? Where is the sacrifice for others? The book of Romans says to "present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service of worship". The casual misuse of music in worship is nothing more than idolotry.tbmmoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01764039356660199898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1138048334092344722006-01-23T12:32:00.000-08:002006-01-23T12:32:00.000-08:00Phil,I know you thought it was clear. That's why ...Phil,<BR/><BR/>I know you thought it was clear. That's why you posted it. I <I>didn't</I> think it was clear. That's why I asked for clarification. If that makes me a dolt, so be it. I've been thought of as worse. ;-)<BR/><BR/>I did mention several times that I recognized that you had specifically said you were not talking about the propriety of backing tracks. Indeed, that was a large part of my reason for wanting further definition, since backing tracks are what most people think about when they think about "karaoke."<BR/><BR/>I fully agree with your points about entertainment, and about the danger of music (or any other aspect of worship) becoming about garnering applause rather than truly worshipping God. I'm fully in agreement with what you've said is your main point: Entertainment and corporate worship are not the same thing.<BR/><BR/>My concern was that some people would simply jump on all forms of soloing or using backing tracks as being automatically evil. I think that concern has been borne out by a few of the subsequent comment posts here.<BR/><BR/>To be honest, my suspicion was that you really <I>were</I> objecting mainly to backing tracks, but could perhaps think of a counter-example or two which prevented you from issuing a blanket condemnation of them. Nonetheless, I think we essentially agree on most of this, providing we acknowledge that many churches <I>do</I> use these tools rightly and are sometimes victimized by crusaders who simply have different tastes and seek to baptize those tastes as Holy Writ itself.<BR/><BR/>(P.S. I think smuggling "youth groups" into the discussion is a little evasive, since the issue is supposed to be worship services, and karaoke singing for fun at a youth event, whether one likes it or not, would have nothing to do with the regulative principle. Nonetheless, thanks for the explanation, and I apologize for any rabbit trails.)Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09049099152698919505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137825448836473642006-01-20T22:37:00.000-08:002006-01-20T22:37:00.000-08:00Jon: "What evidence is there that an 'open-mike' n...Jon: <I>"What evidence is there that an 'open-mike' night as a worship service is actually being performed at churches?"</I><BR/><BR/>See:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.karaokegalore.com/christian.asp" REL="nofollow">Christian Karaoke</A><BR/><A HREF="http://www.mymusic.com/product.asp?myptr=froogle&curr=0&muzenbr=527967" REL="nofollow">Karaoke Party--"Sunday Worship" </A>Habitans in Siccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13666311435942322569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137792253858552702006-01-20T13:24:00.000-08:002006-01-20T13:24:00.000-08:00This is just a warning:I may, at some point in the...This is just a warning:<BR/><BR/>I may, at some point in the future, use the phrase "it encourages so many teenage girls to envision themselves as Christianized Brittany Spearses". I'm just warning you in advance...<BR/><BR/>I will try to remember where I stole it from... I promise.Darelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06253863496769360853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137786097040951482006-01-20T11:41:00.000-08:002006-01-20T11:41:00.000-08:00John,In the post itself and in the comments thread...John,<BR/><BR/>In the post itself and in the comments thread, some of us have pointed out that there are indeed churches (and youth groups) that sponsor karaoke "hymn-sings," where people (individuals and small groups) are invited to the front (not necessarily "chosen at random"; I think they are usually volunteers), handed a mike, and given an opportunity to sing popular Christian music to a prerecorded track for the amusement of the rest of the congregation.<BR/><BR/>I wasn't citing this as an argument against all prerecorded tracks (and said so expressly); I was merely pointing out that when church solos devolve into to karaoke contests, it's a little hard to justify the claim that this is anything more than pure entertainment.<BR/><BR/>I'm also suggesting that to the degree any solo or group "performance" is done for <I>entertainment,</I> in precisely that degree it ceases to be authentic worship.<BR/><BR/>This surely ought to make us pause and reflect on the ease with which church music devolves into mere entertainment, and we ought to be more diligent in guarding against that.<BR/><BR/>However, I'm not at the moment trying to quantify how much, how little, or what kind of instrumentation is good or bad. I'm also not trying to argue that the recording process itself is evil, as if prerecorded music should be forbidden just because it's a recorded medium.<BR/><BR/>(I admit that I don't really like or approve of canned music because of the way it encourages so many teenage girls to envision themselves as Christianized Brittany Spearses. Too many track-singers seem to aspire to <I>perform for applause,</I> as opposed to nobler motives. But we'll save that discussion for another thread. It wasn't the discussion I was starting here, and again, I tried to make that clear.)<BR/><BR/>Here's the central point I was trying to make in the post itself: <B>Entertainment and corporate worship are not the same thing.</B> I'm was also trying to highlight the fact that the contemporary church, for the most part, seems oblivious to the distinction between entertainment and worship and therefore is naiveley open to almost anything that draws a crowd and entertains people.<BR/><BR/>Here's why this came up in the first place:<BR/><BR/>When (in another forum) I originally brought up what I thought was a hypothetical <I>reductio</I> (karaoke), it never occurred to me that anyone would defend it as an appropriate form of worship. To my surprise, I learned that there ARE churches already doing this, and lots of people who see nothing wrong with it.<BR/><BR/>I was therefore trying to make a point about how far contemporary evangelicalism has already descended on the downgrade. I thought it was clear. I didn't anticipate that it would open a days-long debate about the propriety of recorded music <I>per se</I>—<B>especially since I expressly included a disclaimer for those who might imagine that was the point I wanted to talk about</B>.<BR/><BR/>But I guess it still wasn't quite clear enough. Sorry. All the rabbit trails weary me, and lately I've been lax in replying to comments.Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137779737916697752006-01-20T09:55:00.000-08:002006-01-20T09:55:00.000-08:00Doug,C'mon, surely you have the ability to reason ...Doug,<BR/><BR/>C'mon, surely you have the ability to reason better than this.<BR/><BR/>This is <I>not</I> what happened in the "modern-day prophets" series. In that thread, Phil mentioned that there were no modern day prophets. Many of the respondents <I>changed the subject</I> to an issue Phil hadn't brought up, asking him to defend cessationism.<BR/><BR/>This is exactly the <I>opposite</I> of what happened there. Phil has decried "karaoke worship," and I'm trying to find out what the heck "karaoke worship" actually <I>is.</I> The problem is--he doesn't really tell us in the post. And thus, when you simply repeat what Phil said, you're not addressing it either. You haven't shed any further light on it.<BR/><BR/>I'm <I>precisely</I> interacting with Phil's post. I'm asking for a definition of the thing he's opposing. How in the world could that be considered off-subject?<BR/><BR/>Your "definition" wasn't helpful. You provided a dictionary definition that includes the concepts of prerecorded accompaniment, performers singing live, popular songs, and words on a screen.<BR/><BR/>Most have agreed that no churches are calling people up randomly to sing to words on a screen, most of us agree that live singing isn't the problem, and you have specificially told us it isn't about pre-recorded accompaniment tracks. So for the thousandth time, WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?<BR/><BR/>I think that's a fair and pertinent question.<BR/><BR/>And I still maintain that the phrase is a Rorshach blot that means "whatever Phil (and Doug) don't like."Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09049099152698919505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137776267667268542006-01-20T08:57:00.000-08:002006-01-20T08:57:00.000-08:00Who has ever seen a church worship service consist...Who has ever seen a church worship service consistent with our normal usage of karaoke... the karaoke we all think of when someone asks if you want to go to a karaoke bar?<BR/><BR/><BR/>I have. I have seen it in two different churches. Once in Yuma, AZ and once in Nashville, TN. Don't ask me the names of the churches... the sooner I was out of there the better. One of them had a name like "Door" or something...<BR/><BR/>It's, in a word, revolting.Darelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06253863496769360853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137719506534812162006-01-19T17:11:00.000-08:002006-01-19T17:11:00.000-08:00red22,Sorry for being a jerk and a smart-aleck. I...< apology><BR/>red22,<BR/>Sorry for being a jerk and a smart-aleck. I just expect a certain tone from the commenters when I come to Pyro and don't recognize a compliment when I see it.< /apology>Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137703055858846372006-01-19T12:37:00.000-08:002006-01-19T12:37:00.000-08:00All you've really done is simply repeated Phil"Tha...<I>All you've really done is simply repeated Phil"</I><BR/><BR/>That was what I was trying to do. This is, after all, Phil's blog. He made a point. And then all the comments that followed had nothing to do with his point.<BR/><BR/>This is the same thing that has hijacked the "modern-day prophets" series. Phil said, "there are no true modern-day prophets." Then everyone began commenting on cessationism vs continuationism, totally ignoring his original post.<BR/><BR/>I am just trying to interact with Phil's post, not a different subject of background tracks vs live music. If we want to discuss that we should start our own blog or ask Phil to post on it.Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00156736279906719942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137661632839180872006-01-19T01:07:00.000-08:002006-01-19T01:07:00.000-08:00Dear Phil,Many thanks for a clear explanation.I re...Dear Phil,<BR/><BR/>Many thanks for a clear explanation.<BR/><BR/>I read ‘Ashamed of the Gospel’ and found it extremely helpful, but when I discovered that Grace used an orchestra I found this rather confusing. Isn’t this something the Puritans would have sought to avoid, indeed you quote Spurgeon here ‘of all those who are converted through fine music, and church decoration, and religious exhibitions and entertainments, they will amount to the tenth part of nothing’.<BR/><BR/>This is not a trick question (I think I support just about all you write): I would just like to know your rationale on the use of an orchestra, and for that matter worship groups per se. Do these not fall into the category of entertainment? I am not suggesting, necessarily, that worship should be unaccompanied. Well, maybe it should be?<BR/><BR/>If you read this, I appreciate your time.<BR/><BR/>Mike (UK)Mike.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17949798605264144730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137660127906724582006-01-19T00:42:00.000-08:002006-01-19T00:42:00.000-08:00wow. karaoke in church. I'm speechlesswow. karaoke in church. I'm speechlessrustypthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14050680318878122036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137650485058258322006-01-18T22:01:00.000-08:002006-01-18T22:01:00.000-08:00John,I couldn't agree with you more. Ditto on all...John,<BR/><BR/>I couldn't agree with you more. Ditto on all of your pooints. Who has ever seen a church worship service consistent with our normal usage of karaoke... the karaoke we all think of when someone asks if you want to go to a karaoke bar? <BR/><BR/>- Andy DollahiteAndy Dollahitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09575945592447351602noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137618329683463252006-01-18T13:05:00.000-08:002006-01-18T13:05:00.000-08:00Mr. Phil Johnson of Pyromaniac fame weighs in on w...Mr. Phil Johnson of Pyromaniac fame weighs in on worship, and lets the RPW shine on karaoke mayhem.<BR/><A HREF="http://brianjlund.blogspot.com/2006/01/around-blogosphereblogging.html" REL="nofollow">My Post Here</A><BR/><BR/>blundblundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08100309191124779479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137609415550176402006-01-18T10:36:00.000-08:002006-01-18T10:36:00.000-08:00Doug,All you've really done is simply repeated Phi...Doug,<BR/><BR/>All you've really done is simply repeated Phil, and we're really no closer to the issue. You (and Phil) have removed almost all of the defining points of karaoke ("PHIL IS NOT TALKING ABOUT BACKGROUND TRACKS OR PRE-RECORDED MUSIC!!!!") and left one--entertainment--to oppose. But don't we get a lot closer to the issue, then, if we simply oppose <I>entertainment</I> in church?<BR/><BR/>But the problem with that is that pretty much everyone would <I>agree</I>, and thus there'd be no cheap rhetorical points to score.<BR/><BR/>The argument is, as best I can tell, "We're opposed to 'karaoke worship.' But by that, we <I>don't</I> mean that we're necessarily opposed to backing tracks or to soloists.'"<BR/><BR/>Oh.<BR/><BR/>It's like saying "We're against Valentines Day. But understand, we're <I>not</I> opposed to a day where people buy cards and candy for their beloved, or take them on a nice date. Or to holding this day on February 14. It's really the color <I>red</I> that bothers us." I suppose that's one way to get at it, but it would sure make a lot more sense for everyone if you'd simply cut to the chase then.<BR/><BR/>If entertainment in worship is the problem, then I suspect we're just about all agreed. Great. We're against it. But we're also apparently agreed that someone singing a solo in church to a backing track is not necessarily entertainment, and that just because a church uses this doesn't make it "man-centered."<BR/><BR/>That's a fine position (and one I agree with), but it seems to fall a bit short of the bombast of the original post.<BR/><BR/>I've never seen a church where random people were selected to sing for everyone while watching the words on a screen. And you haven't either. So the strawman has been effectively blown over with much sound and fury, but where are we?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09049099152698919505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137594535787622112006-01-18T06:28:00.000-08:002006-01-18T06:28:00.000-08:00OK. Let's get detailedKARAOKE (from American Heri...OK. Let's get detailed<BR/><BR/>KARAOKE (from American Heritage Dictionary): 1. A music entertainment system providing prerecorded accompaniment to popular songs that a performer sings live, usually by following the words on a video screen.<BR/>2. The performance of such music.<BR/><BR/>WORSHIP (from same): a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.<BR/>b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.<BR/><BR/>If you look carefully at these two definitions (the words used in Phil's post) you will see that Karaoke and Worship have nothing in common. Karaoke is entertainment, by definition. Worship is love offered to God.<BR/><BR/>Now, while worship may entertain some of us, karaoke can not be worship.<BR/><BR/>PHIL IS NOT TALKING ABOUT BACKGROUND TRACKS OR PRE-RECORDED MUSIC!!!!! He is talking about a practice of having "karaoke night" or "open-mic night" during a worship service. This practice is profaning of the holy name of God.Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00156736279906719942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137588932523541832006-01-18T04:55:00.000-08:002006-01-18T04:55:00.000-08:00Thank you red22! If you haven't read my comment, ...Thank you red22! If you haven't read my comment, go back and read it. You'll find we agree!Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137586824577966382006-01-18T04:20:00.000-08:002006-01-18T04:20:00.000-08:00Bob Kauflin has some excellent, pastoral points re...Bob Kauflin has some excellent, pastoral points regarding this subject:<BR/><A HREF="http://worshipmatters.blogs.com/bobkauflin/2005/12/canned_music.html" REL="nofollow">Should We Use Canned Music In Church 1/2</A><BR/><A HREF="http://worshipmatters.blogs.com/bobkauflin/2005/12/should_we_can_c.html" REL="nofollow">Should We Use Canned Music In Church 2/2</A>Jacob Hantlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04964637928698990552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137562069849225992006-01-17T21:27:00.000-08:002006-01-17T21:27:00.000-08:00A graphic illustrating the point of Karaoke Worshi...A graphic illustrating the point of Karaoke Worship is available at http://breformed.blogspot.com. Enjoy.David Mohlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05586107161513106957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137560710035336102006-01-17T21:05:00.000-08:002006-01-17T21:05:00.000-08:00As a worship leader in a big church I'd like to sa...As a worship leader in a big church I'd like to say... how 'bout that <I>American Idol</I> tonight! Man, that was hilarious.<BR/><BR/>Seriously, if you can do Rom 12, IS 58, and IS 66:1-2 to a karaoke machine, more power to you. All life is worship to God. The "worship" of the corporate gathering is not well defined in the NT (in fact the word worship is barely used). Its a heart issue not a style issue... theoretically. In practice its seems like a style issue.marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10158311614104904363noreply@blogger.com