tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post113704933933452456..comments2023-05-27T03:17:19.681-07:00Comments on PyroManiac: Allow me to reiterate...Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger166125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-14623874270794973112008-06-18T13:02:00.000-07:002008-06-18T13:02:00.000-07:00Brad, do you defend "prophets" who have spoken fal...Brad, do you defend "prophets" who have spoken false prophesies because you are among their ranks?Pitbull78https://www.blogger.com/profile/10510288773845470403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-35644577795870502262008-06-02T08:33:00.000-07:002008-06-02T08:33:00.000-07:00I am a great believer in free wiil, this is a gift...I am a great believer in free wiil, this is a gift from god so all us may do what we want believe what we want, it does not mean he does not exist or care just that he cares for all, I sell <A HREF="http://www.satellitenavigationreviews.co.uk/halfords-satnav.html" REL="nofollow">halfords sat nav</A> and deal with the general public everyday and see all sides of personalitoes from good and gracious to selfish and cruel, it does not effect my beliefs nor will it as it is god who will decide in the end what all of us are to be.ettesahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10287832905185562766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-51879119602601361532007-06-26T09:32:00.000-07:002007-06-26T09:32:00.000-07:00JESUS REPLIED,"ARE YOU NOT IN ERROR BECAUSE YOU DO...JESUS REPLIED,"ARE YOU NOT IN ERROR BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW THE SCRIPTURES OR THE POWER OF GOD?"<BR/>This statement of Our Lord and Savior only reminds me that God is in the business of correcting our theology,I can only say that God is not limited, but can and will do what He wants, when he wants .proof text mal.3:6 Have the gifts of God ceased because we now have the cannon? i don't think so,abused imitated,Hocked like God gave them whole sale,but they who do such things in the name of God will only hear depart from me you crused of my Father,I won't throw the baby out with the bath water. <BR/><BR/>I know that men have cheapened the grace of God in mens eyes and in God's by their miracle fund raisers<BR/>But the Gifts and calling are irrevocable,Rom 11:29 But grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord<BR/>2 pet.3:18 if God wants to empower his people with his gifts,then i hope i willing to recieve that grace.if not,Then what He's did for me is more than enough,And it make me want to do something about it,pray for us here in New England<BR/> Charles GordonMr.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02167525905592747771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137689006299179392006-01-19T08:43:00.000-08:002006-01-19T08:43:00.000-08:00RIPENING FRUITHere is a great observation by J.I. ...RIPENING FRUIT<BR/><BR/>Here is a great observation by J.I. Packer in his superb study of the Puritans, "A Quest for Godliness." Packer, an expert on Puritanism's greatest theologian, John Owen, says that Owen would evaluate modern Pentecostal phenomena according to several principles.<BR/><BR/>One such principle, writes Packer, is as follows: <BR/><BR/>"Since the use of a person's gifts is intended by God to further the work of grace in his own soul, the possibility that (for instance) a man's glossolalia is from God can only be entertained at all as long as it accompanied by a discernible ripening of the fruit of the Spirit in his life."<BR/><BR/>In a time when many Christians are chasing after fads and experiences, those words should be pondered very carefully. We Christians (cessationists and non-cessationists alike) do well to examine ourselves to see if there is indeed a ripening of the fruit of the Holy Spirit--love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control--in our lives.Deutero Qhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05900622047641663118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137498447666845572006-01-17T03:47:00.000-08:002006-01-17T03:47:00.000-08:00Catez:The link is just a pic of a guy hitting his ...Catez:<BR/>The link is just a pic of a guy hitting his head against a brick wall. :)<BR/><BR/>I too know all about taking a long time to recognize the irony in saying "I'm so glad I'm not like those self-righteous religious people..." It's scary when you realize you've become the thing you claim to hate-but in a good way because it makes one rely all the more on grace.Charhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00590850703882621173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137498302442674092006-01-17T03:45:00.000-08:002006-01-17T03:45:00.000-08:00How did notions of fallibility and error become to...How did notions of <I>fallibility</I> and <I>error</I> become tools of <I>defense</I> for continuationism?<BR/><BR/>The emperor has no clothes.Away From The Brinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01437744242086239050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137490687484242532006-01-17T01:38:00.000-08:002006-01-17T01:38:00.000-08:00Hi Char,I didn't visit the link but I think your a...Hi Char,<BR/>I didn't visit the link but I think your assessment of the type of argument is correct. Reminds me of a church I was in once - if other churches had a different teaching then the leaders said they were "religious" (they had no idea of the correct meaning of the word "religious"), or they were "self-righteous Pharisees".<BR/><BR/>Brad has tried appealing to that mentality in his comments. I learned the hard way that labelling and name calling like that is a message of hate and ignorance. My church, which prided itself on not being like those "Pharisees" and which encouraged an automatically hostile attitude to anyone who didn't accept it's teaching - well it turned out to be teaching seious error. The whole church (minus a removed leader) repented of pride, among other things.<BR/><BR/>I discovered that some of those "Pharisees" had a tremendous amount of scriptural understanding, had solid biblical teaching, and had studied carefully for a long time. It was a sin to call them "self-righteous Pharisees" just because some-one else said they were. I discovered people who desired to be continually transformed by the Holy Spirit into the image of Christ, who pursued their scripture study with integrity and humility, and who had a lot that I benefitted from. I didn't agree with everything they said, but after a church diet of complete hostility toward any other teaching, name-calling without basis, and cute stories and analogies that were not even scriptural - these guys that I was taught were not even to be considered turned out to be my spiritual life raft. (Jesus is the sustainer of course).<BR/><BR/>I continue to discover people like that and have benfitted from some of the comments here on this thread too.<BR/><BR/>God bless you - your comment about the stoning was very good I thought.Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137472341058044852006-01-16T20:32:00.000-08:002006-01-16T20:32:00.000-08:00I hate blogger. I can never get the links to work....I hate blogger. I can never get the links to work. One more time:<BR/><BR/> To everyone who is trying to discuss this issue with Brad;<BR/><A HREF="http://k41.pbase.com/u44/paulh/large/28411736.Brickwalled.jpg" REL="nofollow">the likeness is incredible</A><BR/><BR/>Some people actually think they can win arguments by sheer obtuseness.Charhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00590850703882621173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137463509070311552006-01-16T18:05:00.000-08:002006-01-16T18:05:00.000-08:00Hi James,I'd be interested in seeing something on ...Hi James,<BR/>I'd be interested in seeing something on your blog - preferably with comments free of the playground taunt and insult type approach Brad has taken. If the discussion is actually on topic and on relevant scripture it would have me interested.Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137461597333878572006-01-16T17:33:00.000-08:002006-01-16T17:33:00.000-08:00Prophecy is not merely "speaking for God," but "sp...<I>Prophecy is not merely "speaking for God," but "speaking the inspired and infallible word of God revealed to the prophet."</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Excellent point Kyle. And the bible has no mention of Paul claiming to be a prophet prior to his conversion. He mentions a number of things he was and did but not once does he claim to have been a prophet. So firstly - once again we have speculation about what Paul <I>might</I> have been or done instead of looking at scripture. Scripture is sufficient - we don't neeed Isaiah's breakfast table conversations or an apostle's discussions on the household shopping list, or what some-one might have said or done.<BR/><BR/>So, going by what scripture does reveal about Paul prior to his conversion - he does not claim to be a prophet. That would have completely contradicted his beliefs at the time. Paul made his boast in the law, was a Pharisee, and respected the authority of the High Priest. No way he would just up and claim he was a prophet - and since he put his confidence (or thought he did) in the Torah he would never have given "prophecies" without claiming to be a prophet - since the two go together.<BR/><BR/>Scripture tells us what Paul was prior to his conversion and at no time is he acknowledged by the High Priest as a prophet. He is given authority to persecute Christians - but he is not given the office of a prophet.<BR/><BR/>I'm not unfamiliar with the approach Brad is taking - I've seen it before on issues. Basically it comes down to calling anyone who disagrees a Phaisee or some-one who would stone some-one, even though that isn't what they are doing. But I think people who actually persevere through over 180 comments can see for themselves that most people here want to pursue a scriptural basis for what they believe.<BR/><BR/>I'm quite interested in a comment some-one made in which they said they were wrestling with what miraculous gifts can be validated today. <BR/><BR/>I do find it interesting that if some-one is making the point that the Holy Spirit is doing exactly the same things today then we would reasonably expect 100% infallibility today. In the New Testament here is no account of partially true prophecies, partially effective miracles, or prophecies that were a bit from God and a bit from some-one or something else. <BR/><BR/>We don't see this 100% infallibility today though - we find a people claiming to be prophets etc who by virtue of the fact that they are not infallible in their "prophecy" or "miraculous gift" then tell us the Holy Spirit is not the same today - he isn't as effective any more. It is nonsensical to say that the Holy Spirit has become less powerful - he is God. However it does make sense to say that the Holy Spirit is not doing certain things at this time. Even in the NT we see that miracles happened at certain times and not others. I think scripturally it is more accurate to say that the Holy Spirit is either doing something which is 100% infallible, or else he has chosen not to manifest himself in that way. But this partially from God stuff in completely unscriptural. Likewise the idea that any Christian has some mystical ability to "weigh" partially true prophecies. The test of prophecy is scripture - and as we have the revelation of God in his inerrant written word, we do not need extra-biblical "revelation" that contradicts scripture by being partly "true" when there is not one scriptural example of partly true prophecy being acceptable to God or from God.<BR/><BR/>I've enjoyed reading your comments Kyle. Just aded some thoughts of my own here.Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137461216726110812006-01-16T17:26:00.000-08:002006-01-16T17:26:00.000-08:00james spurgeon,sorry but mocking is very effective...james spurgeon,<BR/>sorry but mocking is very effective.:)<BR/>matt,<BR/>this statement has me contemplating suicide:"So, yes, I have no doubt that at some point Paul spoke falsely for God--before he was a believer. I don't see what that has to do with our discussion."- If Paul spoke falsely, he is not/was not 100% accurate!!!!!!!!!!!<BR/>kyle, how is it in there?Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04859259996035017464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137447186612808572006-01-16T13:33:00.000-08:002006-01-16T13:33:00.000-08:00kyle,"Paul never prophesied falsely. And you'd be ...<I>kyle,<BR/>"Paul never prophesied falsely. And you'd be hard-pressed indeed to show that he had."<BR/>I'm no lawyer so I'll have to defer to a higher authority than myself as to whether cold-blooded murder of God's people qualifies as speaking for God.<BR/>This is embarassing...</I><BR/><BR/>You're right, Brad, it certainly is most embarassing—for you. You are deliberately confusing semantic categories in order to prop up your otherwise poor logic. Prophecy is not merely "speaking for God," but "speaking the inspired and infallible word of God revealed to the prophet." There is no evidence whatsoever that Paul ever prophesied before his conversion, so his preconversion life is utterly irrelevant to the point at hand, namely, whether the shedding of Christ's blood allows for fallible and inaccurate prophecy to be "true prophecy" in spite of its fallibility and inaccuracy. If you cannot keep up without introducing more and more tangential and irrelevant issues, and if you won't reply to the substantive points I've made, it is pointless for me even to continue any dialogue with you.Kyjohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02576699017770933239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137445086939842582006-01-16T12:58:00.000-08:002006-01-16T12:58:00.000-08:00brad meyer: Let me understand (this is good)... Yo...brad meyer: <I>Let me understand (this is good)... <BR/>You know for a fact that although Paul previously butchered Christians, he never falsely spoke for God because this would have been the ultimate...wow! this is fascinating stuff...</I><BR/><BR/>You know, it seems to me that if you had as much of the Spirit as you claim, then (a) you wouldn't mock me, (b) you would try harder to understand me instead of being eager to mischaracterize my argument, and (c) you would be seeking to teach me rather than just trying to make me look foolish.<BR/><BR/>Let me know if the Spirit speaks to you about any of that.Friar Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07884620581392407011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137442941145943872006-01-16T12:22:00.000-08:002006-01-16T12:22:00.000-08:00Brad Meyer said: We should ignore murder by someon...Brad Meyer said: <I>We should ignore murder by someone in their past, but not false prophecy...<BR/>OK, if that's your position... keep fighting for it....</I><BR/><BR/>Brad--you're confusing the message and the messenger again. If the message is from God, then the messenger is a true prophet. If not, they are a false prophet. <I>Surely we can agree on that much</I>. Again, at the risk of being repetitive, "cessationists" didn't set these rules out, God did. <BR/><BR/>As far as the New Testament goes, if God's rule regarding prophets has changed, why does Paul bother warning about fierce wolves instead of just saying the false teachers are acting in the flesh rather than the Spirit? Why does he call a curse down on anyone, including angels or even himself, if they preach a different gospel? <BR/><BR/>Because the message is what's important. Don't you think that if someone claims to speak for God, they should be truthful? Prophets should be held to a higher standard than pastors, not lower, because they claim their word is directly from the Lord. <BR/><BR/>And how do we judge the message? By revelation that has already been given--the Bible. God isn't Obi-Wan Kenobi--"trust your feelings, Luke." Thankfully, not, because feelings can be subjective. No, he gave us the objective Word of God. <BR/><BR/>As far as your statements about Paul go, before he was a believer, he thought he was doing God's work by killing Christians. It was only after his miraculous transformation (including 17 years of ministry away from Jerusalem) that he finally came in and was extended the hand of friendship. <BR/><BR/>So, yes, I have no doubt that at some point Paul spoke falsely for God--before he was a believer. I don't see what that has to do with our discussion, since I've never seen you claim that any of these "so-called prophets" are unbelievers, like Paul was. <BR/><BR/>Your claim is that we should cut them some slack, because they are only human, and people make mistakes. I just don't see <I>any</I> Scriptural warrant for your position. This isn't a New Covenant issue, this is an authority of God issue. If I believed that someone could still speak on God's behalf, I'd make good and sure that every syllable that came out of their mouths matched up with Scripture. I'd be a Berean x3. <BR/><BR/>You yourself said "Generally, I would agree with the sentiment here that if someone needs to call themselves a prophet today, they're probably trying to be something they're not." But you've spent the last four days arguing exactly the opposite. <BR/><BR/>You go one to say: "In other words, just follow the directions in the New Testament for dealing with prophecy..." But that's the real problem (and I'm not being mean when I say this, just truthful). There's nowhere in the New Testament that says,"If someone is wrong about a prophecy, forgive them and continue to listen to them." Yet that's exactly what happens in Charismatic churches. <BR/><BR/>There is nothing to fear from false prophets <I>if you don't listen to them</I>. But under the current regime, there are no false prophets, only fallible ones, so <I>everyone</I> can get a hearing. <B><I>Even if</I></B> prophecy exists today, it seems clear that Biblical guidelines regarding who should be considered a true prophet have been cast aside in favor of an eagerness to believe that anyone and everyone can prophesy, and ultimately it doesn't even matter if what they say is right. <BR/><BR/>P.S. James: If you get any takers, I'll be there.Matt Gummhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14698469400042045105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137439743790870872006-01-16T11:29:00.000-08:002006-01-16T11:29:00.000-08:00kyle,"Paul never prophesied falsely. And you'd be ...kyle,<BR/>"Paul never prophesied falsely. And you'd be hard-pressed indeed to show that he had."<BR/>I'm no lawyer so I'll have to defer to a higher authority than myself as to whether cold-blooded murder of God's people qualifies as speaking for God.<BR/>This is embarassing...Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04859259996035017464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137436200693777542006-01-16T10:30:00.000-08:002006-01-16T10:30:00.000-08:00(brad meyer) Let me understand (this is good)... Y...<I>(brad meyer) Let me understand (this is good)... <BR/>You know for a fact that although Paul previously butchered Christians, he never falsely spoke for God because this would have been the ultimate...</I><BR/><BR/>What he said, Brad, is that Paul never prophesied falsely. And you'd be hard-pressed indeed to show that he had. Therefore, the example of Paul is irrelevant to the position you've been espousing, namely, that 100% prophetic accuracy is no longer required.Kyjohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02576699017770933239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137434746376651832006-01-16T10:05:00.000-08:002006-01-16T10:05:00.000-08:00James Spurgeon,Let me understand (this is good)......James Spurgeon,<BR/>Let me understand (this is good)... <BR/>You know for a fact that although Paul previously butchered Christians, he never falsely spoke for God because this would have been the ultimate...wow! this is fascinating stuff...<BR/>And all along here, I thought God's point in choosing Paul was to show that His grace covered anything... We should ignore murder by someone in their past, but not false prophecy...<BR/>OK, if that's your position... keep fighting for it....Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04859259996035017464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137434445058901802006-01-16T10:00:00.000-08:002006-01-16T10:00:00.000-08:00Brad, I fail to even see the relevance. Call me d...Brad, I fail to even see the relevance. Call me dumb. I have it on good authority that Elijah and Elisha were imperfect sinners, too. But they never uttered a false prophecy. Neither did Saul of Tarsus.Momohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292177473341691525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137431947928472882006-01-16T09:19:00.000-08:002006-01-16T09:19:00.000-08:00Everyone,Thanks for playing. If you are still aro...Everyone,<BR/>Thanks for playing. If you are still around here after the knockout punch dealt to your argument regarding murderous Paul being deliberately chosen to prophetically pen the majority of the New Testament, then you're here either to save face or you won't be influenced.<BR/><BR/>Your argument is no longer tenable. Please disperse and go home.Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04859259996035017464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137430616141743732006-01-16T08:56:00.000-08:002006-01-16T08:56:00.000-08:00kyle,Are you saying that Peter actually healed the...<I>kyle,<BR/>Are you saying that Peter actually healed the man? Or did Peter call on God to heal him just like someone praying for healing?</I><BR/><BR/>God healed the man <I>through the agency of Peter</I>. Just like with prophecy, God speaks <I>through the agency of a prophet</I>. Through whose agency is God working when He is <I>responding to prayer</I>, hm?<BR/><BR/><I>Does anyone else cling to this distinction in defense of cessationism?</I><BR/><BR/>Brad, even as a Pentecostal (Assemblies of God) I was well aware of this distinction. It simply amazes me how many continuationists confuse categories here!<BR/><BR/>Once again, I encourage you to read this piece: http://www.the-highway.com/healing_TOC.htmlKyjohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02576699017770933239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137425884169719762006-01-16T07:38:00.000-08:002006-01-16T07:38:00.000-08:00Brad, I think we could have had a more profitable ...Brad, I think we could have had a more profitable discussion if we could have set aside the straw men first.<BR/><BR/>1. I am not arguing for cessationism. To be truthful, I couldn't care less either way.<BR/><BR/>2. I don't think you're listening to me.<BR/><BR/>3. All manner of sins may be forgiven except for the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit--Jesus. Therefore, I am not saying that false prophecy is an unpardonable sin.<BR/><BR/>4. I don't want to see anyone get stoned--not even at a rock concert.<BR/><BR/>5. I have yet to figure out your point about the adulterous woman and her being forgiven. Call me dumb, but you're just going to have to spell it out.<BR/><BR/>6. False prophets can be forgiven. But God says never to listen to them. Ever. 100% accuracy is the test God gives us and he makes it clear that anytime anyone misses even once they are never to be trusted--ever. <BR/><BR/>7. The new covenant does not change that. If it does, you are going to have to explain to me how. And so far your explanations have had the familiar ring of antinomianism.<BR/><BR/>8. Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, upheld Moses' dictum on 100% accuracy by telling us to inspect their fruit and know them by their fruit. So even if I admit continuationism (which I am tempted to do) I still must hold all would-be prophets to the biblical standard. I am to try the Spirits. God does not send forth false prophets.<BR/><BR/>Hey, since I seem to be a glutton for punishment and this comment thread is getting l-o-n-g, maybe we could take this over to my blog. Would that be alright?<BR/><BR/>Let me know.<BR/><BR/>And, hey, please look at what I explicitly say and don't try to read between the lines and deal with what you think I might be implying. That will help because I don't think you know my position as well as you think.<BR/><BR/>God bless.Momohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292177473341691525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137423881322038072006-01-16T07:04:00.000-08:002006-01-16T07:04:00.000-08:00BTW, Paul didn't just show up the day after he pre...BTW, Paul didn't just show up the day after he presided over a stoning and say,"Hey guys, I'm on your side now." <BR/><BR/>Let's look at his account from Galatians 1-2 (all quotes ESV).<BR/><BR/><I>And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.</I> (Gal 1:14-17)<BR/><BR/>Paul says here that after Christ appeared to him, he didn't just show up on the doorstep of the apostles, but he went away for awhile. <BR/><BR/><I>For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.</I> (Gal 1:11-12)<BR/><BR/>He went away to be taught the Gospel, apparently by some sort of direct revelation from Christ (this is important, because one of the requirements of the Apostles, the Twelve, was that they had spent time with Jesus during his earthly ministry--see <A HREF="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=acts+1%3A21-26" REL="nofollow">Acts 1:21-26</A>.)<BR/><BR/><I>Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother. (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” And they glorified God because of me.<BR/>Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. </I> (Gal 1:18-2:1)<BR/><BR/>He worked for three years, and then went to see Peter and James the brother of Jesus. Then, after another 14 years, he finally went up and presented himself to the Jerusalem church. By that point, they had heard of his ministry, and seen his faithfulness, and praised God for it. <BR/><BR/>Although I personally don't see the gift of prophecy as still active today, if I did, this incident would be very instructive as far as how to handle someone who had formerly been against the faith (through persecution, false prophecy, or anything else). It makes sense that they should labor and show some fruit before they would be embraced. This is consistent with Paul's instructions to Timothy at <A HREF="http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=1+Timothy+5%3A22-25" REL="nofollow">the end of 1 Timothy</A>, where he admonishes him not to be quick to lay on hands (a reference, I think, to appointing elders and leaders of the church), and also watching the fruit of someone.Matt Gummhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14698469400042045105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137419629765973282006-01-16T05:53:00.000-08:002006-01-16T05:53:00.000-08:00Brad Meyer said: This is circular logic: God requi...Brad Meyer said: <I>This is circular logic: God requires prophets to be 100% accurate. How do we know? Because He says to stone those that give false prophecy. Well he also says to stone those guilty of marital infidelity. But we know that marital infidelity can and has been forgiven at the cross.</I><BR/><BR/>Brad, I think you've misunderstood why prophets need to be accurate. God setup 100% accuracy as a test so we can know who the true prophets are, ie, the ones that actually speak for him. Since God <I>calls</I> prophets to prophesy, and since God himself is <I>never</I> wrong, true prophets will also never be wrong. <BR/><BR/>Also, when we're told to test the spirits, what do think is the standard? When you replied to me earlier, you said: <I>You tell a New Covenant prophet by his accuracy- does what he says come to pass? does it match up with the Word?</I>, but then you followed by saying: <I>Christ's Spirit now lives in you to help to discern</I>. But we have to rely on what God has already said (ie, the Scripture) as the dividing line between truth and error, not our feelings informed by the Spirit. That is how we test the spirits. <BR/><BR/>Try as I might to understand your marriage analogy, I think it falls short, because we're talking about two different things. You're saying that, since we're under the new covenant, people who make false prophecies can be forgiven, and don't have to be stoned. But I don't see anyone arguing that point with you. <BR/><BR/>What I and others have said is that when someone prophesies faslely, they can no longer be considered a true prophet. That may sound harsh, but understand, we didn't set up the rules--God did. And if someone claims to be speaking on behalf of God (I'm talking new revelation, not preaching here), they had better be right, or they are not from God--period. They are fierce wolves, as Paul would say (Acts 20:29-30), and as John says, they are the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:1-3). That's serious stuff. <BR/><BR/>Paul also says "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." (Gal 1:8-9, ESV). That's pretty strong language against false teachers, and surely this warning would apply to false prophets as well, right?<BR/><BR/>So again, to reiterate this point: if someone in leadership does something wrong and repents, just because we forgive them doesn't mean that we <I>automatically</I> restore them to their former position. I would think this would be especially true if someone claimed to be receiving <I>new revelation</I> from God.Matt Gummhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14698469400042045105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137409161690689262006-01-16T02:59:00.000-08:002006-01-16T02:59:00.000-08:00Hi Steve,I'm late picking up on this:If prophecy, ...Hi Steve,<BR/>I'm late picking up on this:<BR/><BR/><I>If prophecy, even in the 1st century, was completely 100% perfect, then why did Paul tell the Corinthians to weigh the prophecies?</I><BR/><BR/>Actually as far as the Corinthians go the prophets were told to "judge" the prophecies of other prophets. If you look at it in line with other scripture we see that judging or testing prophecy involves discerning whether the spirit is of God or not, and the issue of infalliblity. Given that there were false prophets and teachers trying to infiltrate the early churches the advice makes sense.<BR/><BR/>There's nothing in the context to suggest weighing an individual prophecy and taking out the 65% accurate part for instance. Neither does it say in Corinthians that everyone has the ability to judge the prophecies. If you look at the Greek used it really is about judging - and about discrimianting between one or the other. It also carries the meaning of being discerning - the discerning of spirits in this context. Prophecy is never biblically a mixture of God's spirit and another spirit.<BR/>Hope that helps.Catezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14514176885131945814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1137408275517225442006-01-16T02:44:00.000-08:002006-01-16T02:44:00.000-08:00PS. The prophetic author of 2/3 of the New Testam...PS. The prophetic author of 2/3 of the New Testament used to slaughter Christians. Do you think in the job interview (ha), the Apostles said to each other:<BR/>"Hey look. We can look over the execution of God's people. I for one just want to know if he ever happened to use the words, 'God told me...' falsely. Barring that, I don't see a problem here."Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04859259996035017464noreply@blogger.com