tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post113169399923811905..comments2023-05-27T03:17:19.681-07:00Comments on PyroManiac: Whole lotta shakin'Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1132078783067587352005-11-15T10:19:00.000-08:002005-11-15T10:19:00.000-08:00"If you have spent any time in charismatic circles..."If you have spent any time in charismatic circles, you know that I could have easily sold the idea that the earthquakes were proof that I am endowed with amazing prophetic gifts."<BR/><BR/>What alot of tripe.<BR/><BR/>I have to tell you I am more than dismayed that this debate has come up again. Maybe it is the tone of the posts, Good Christians All, that I have read.<BR/><BR/>Tell me, O wise ones, what Christian movement of any type has not had its criticisms and detractors?<BR/><BR/>The wholesale dismissal(cessationists?) of the Charismatic movement,(which I would love to remind you arose during a time when the Mainline 'Reformed' churches were solidly on the 'God is Dead' route, barely able to keep its confirmed, let alone win the lost of their generation- Of which I was one- That attended the Presbyterian church and came from Reformed teaching of good credentials) was the instrument of revival for our time. <BR/><BR/>I find the arguments given against the gifts, and prophecy in particular, to be lacking. What are they, except subjective complaints?<BR/><BR/>A question of style rather than substance. pooh.<BR/><BR/>If I can get over my disgust at the topic, maybe I can dig up the old discussion points and try to enter with good grace. but right now.... with the doors of Islam ajar, and world events afire, I just find it hard to garner enthusiam in ye olde Christian infighting.IlonaGardenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07035401683506659646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131887000538265252005-11-13T05:03:00.000-08:002005-11-13T05:03:00.000-08:00Sharon - you had me fooled for about 2 seconds. T...Sharon - you had me fooled for about 2 seconds. Thanks for your great ministry. I won't let the cat out of the bag re your identity.Warren Pearsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04411313619339068318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131864235451539992005-11-12T22:43:00.000-08:002005-11-12T22:43:00.000-08:00i think i have the honor of helping Phil to clairf...i think i have the honor of helping Phil to clairfy Rule 2 on June 12th. No thanks necessary Phil...Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04859259996035017464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131850894023677162005-11-12T19:01:00.000-08:002005-11-12T19:01:00.000-08:00Also-I meant to say that if you do hold modern pro...Also-<BR/>I meant to say that if you do hold modern prophets to the same standard of accountability (that is, infallible prophecy in all respects) as the Old Testament prophets, then the infallible words they give would be on par with sacred Scripture. So that the gift of prophecy, if practiced in the Church today would destroy the doctrine of <I>sola Scriptura</I>, as Mr. Johnson points out in his most recent post. This observation is certainly not an iron-clad argument for cessationism in and of itself, but it does serve to demonstrate just what the issue is at stake.Andrew Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543222209236040112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131833512894291232005-11-12T14:11:00.000-08:002005-11-12T14:11:00.000-08:00brian,Regarding your last comment, I think that it...brian,<BR/>Regarding your last comment, I think that it is interesting to note that Wayne Grudem argues that the New Testament prophets are not to be held to the same standard as the Old Testament prophets. He cites the example of Agabus, who in Acts 21:11 predicts that Paul will be bound by he Jews and handed over to the Gentiles. In Acts 21:33 it is fairly apparent that the Romans themselves bind Paul and take him into custody. Now, I am fairly certain that I do NOT share Grudem's semi-cessationist view (I use the term semi-cessationist because Grudem seems to believe that the miraculous gifts are not supposed to function in the same degree in the Church today as they did in the time of the apostles). I just thought that this was an interesting note that might prompt further discussion.Andrew Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543222209236040112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131822421351906902005-11-12T11:07:00.000-08:002005-11-12T11:07:00.000-08:00Newbie alert! After reading PyroManiac faithfully...Newbie alert! After reading PyroManiac faithfully for the last several weeks, and wanting to post a comment or two, I finally set up a blog account so as to be able to leap into the conversarions.<BR/><BR/>Just a bit of an introduction--I work at Grace Community Church, and those who attend there probably know who I am. Please don't blow my cover . . . yet! :-)<BR/><BR/>I do look forward to participating here from time to time, schedule permitting.<BR/><BR/>Psalm 40:3<BR/><BR/>P.S. I have in my treasured possession one of the rare Official PyroManiac Bumper Stickers. I feel humbled to have been bestowed with such an honor. Thanks, Phil!Sharonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14534421623031122881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131814535260737702005-11-12T08:55:00.000-08:002005-11-12T08:55:00.000-08:00JerryW,I've just posted my first stab at a bit of ...JerryW,<BR/><BR/>I've just posted my first stab at a bit of <A HREF="http://inscrutableobserver.blogspot.com/2005/11/cessation-1-perfect-has-come.html" REL="nofollow">mini-exegesis on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12</A>. It addresses the question of whether "the perfect" to which Paul refers in verse 10 has already come.<BR/><BR/>Now that I've started the ball rolling with my feeble effort, I hope that other folks, both cessationist and non-cessationist, will follow suit with exegetical posts of their own. Folks, don't feel as though you have to write 100% of the words on your own. People on both sides of the discussion ought to feel free to quote from writers whom they think will help them make their point, just as I've done in my post. We don't need to reinvent the wheel, just to provide a reasonable Biblical defense of our respective positions.<BR/><BR/>Also, please feel free to bite off a small chunk of Scripture at a time. Don't feel as though you have to write up a single blog post that exhaustively defends your whole position. Pick a section of Scripture that has a bearing on the topic of prophecy/cessation and which you think you can handle in a reasonably-sized article.<BR/><BR/>Eagerly awaiting future posts of substance,<BR/><BR/>Davetheinscrutableonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00918928202965884076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131810653091565152005-11-12T07:50:00.000-08:002005-11-12T07:50:00.000-08:00On the "Original Purpose" of the Miraculous GiftsE...<B>On the "Original Purpose" of the Miraculous Gifts</B><BR/>Earlier in this comment thread my good friend Nathan White challenged us to do some research as to what the original purpose for the miraculous gifts was, according to Scripture.<BR/>It is my understanding at this time that the purpose for the miraculous gifts was to testify to the person and work of Jesus Christ. So that the Lord Jesus, the cornerstone of the Church, performed signs to testify to His ministry (John 20:30-31) and the apostles and prophets, the foundation of the Church (Ephesians 2:20), also performed signs not to glorify themselves, but to provide supernatural verification for their unique testimony of Christ (for Christ is the ultimate subject of all their teaching: http://alindsey4.blogspot.com/2005/07/subject-of-scripture.html ).<BR/>It is my understanding, then, at this time, that only Christ and His prophets and apostles performed miracles and so all true miracles that were performed by individuals are recorded in the pages of Scripture.<BR/>If anyone can find a Scriptural example of a true miracle performed by someone who was not a prophet or an apostle, then my understanding must be reformed.<BR/>If anyone has any further scriptural insight into the purpose for miraculous gifts, then I encourage you to post it here (assuming that Mr. Johnson deems these comments to be on topic).Andrew Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06543222209236040112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131806310596324212005-11-12T06:38:00.000-08:002005-11-12T06:38:00.000-08:00Phil et al,Please forgive my behavior - or should ...Phil et al,<BR/><BR/>Please forgive my behavior - or should I say my "heart." For the record, I meant no shot at TMS the institution. I am eternally grateful to what TMS/GCC/JM put in me - and what God took out of me while there. I still highly recommend it to everyone who inquires.<BR/><BR/>I'm new at this blogging thing. Apparently it shows. I'll bow out now before my ID gets blacklisted.<BR/><BR/>Again, please forgive my breaking of the rules. I need to heed the lessons for 1st grade - read ALL the directions first ;o)<BR/><BR/>RegardsRichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14219449693919069408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131805803488993852005-11-12T06:30:00.000-08:002005-11-12T06:30:00.000-08:00Well I guess “Whole lotta shaken” turned out to be...Well I guess “Whole lotta shaken” turned out to be a prophetic title in itself :) <BR/><BR/>Phil your right, there is no need for this kind of mud-slinging. Even before your post I knew I had crossed the line with my previous reply. I’d certainly like to apologize to you, Shockie, and Brian for my rhetoric. My words were certainly ‘piercing of a sword’ rather than the on who ‘promotes health’ –Prov 12:18. So regardless as to whether I felt personally attacked or not, I should have swallowed my pride and responded better. It wont happen again. <BR/><BR/>SDGNathan Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14146269563760139652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131799443549477432005-11-12T04:44:00.000-08:002005-11-12T04:44:00.000-08:00Phil,Your rule states..."BTW: for future reference...Phil,<BR/>Your rule states...<BR/><BR/><I>"BTW: for future reference: Deliberate personal disparagement of my pastor, my church, my wife, my dog, my children, or the ministry I work for will be deemed outside the parameters of Christian civility ...</I><BR/><BR/>I noticed that you listed your dog before your children ... does this say something about who is more valuable in the Johnson family? ... yet you got all those praises for the post about your son. Go Figure. ;~)<BR/><BR/>I really was touched by the post about your son, also (is this off topic?). It gives me hope for the reluctant reader/writer I have in my second grade daughter.Rose~https://www.blogger.com/profile/14906854078623897422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131795007200234352005-11-12T03:30:00.000-08:002005-11-12T03:30:00.000-08:00Speaking of "homework," I think a few people here ...Speaking of "homework," I think a few people here need to go look up the word "ad hominem."Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00781523237313565560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131778375485681222005-11-11T22:52:00.000-08:002005-11-11T22:52:00.000-08:00Whoa. I leave the blog for half a day, and look wh...Whoa. I leave the blog for half a day, and look what happens.<BR/><BR/>A lot of this stuff (on both sides) is unnecessarily insulting and overly personal and therefore violates rule 2.<BR/><BR/>It's also off topic.<BR/><BR/>Let me inform those who may be new to the blog about this clarification of rule 2, which I originally posted on 12 June:<BR/><BR/><B>"BTW: for future reference: Deliberate personal disparagement of my pastor, my church, my wife, my dog, my children, or the ministry I work for will be deemed outside the parameters of Christian civility and therefore a violation of Rule 2. Say whatever you like about me (as long as you keep your language clean), and I'll let you post it. Take a cheap shot at someone with whom I have a personal relationship of love and respect—whether it be John MacArthur, my dog Wrigley, or anyone in between—and I'll delete it."</B><BR/><BR/>Though technically, I have no official connection with TMS, it is nonetheless an institution with which I have a personal relationship of love and respect. If you have a grievance against TMS, there's a better way to deal with it than using an anonymous phony name to air your complaint on <I>my</I> blog. That sort of poltroonery will not be tolerated here, and all further comments from the phony account that produced those comments will be unceremoniously deleted.<BR/><BR/>If you have such a grievance and don't know what the proper way to deal with it is, e-mail me and I'll point you to the proper forum.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, let's discuss the issue of modern prophecy with integrity and mutual respect. There's no need for rancor, and especially no excuse for that sort of deliberate, craven nastiness.<BR/><BR/>Now, can we get back on topic?Phil Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131776133904052392005-11-11T22:15:00.000-08:002005-11-11T22:15:00.000-08:00wow. gee...."apologestosterone" is a great word to...wow. <BR/><BR/>gee....<BR/><BR/>"apologestosterone" is a great word to describe this thread.<BR/><BR/>A few years ago I worked in a Christian outdoor wilderness ministry. The great debate of the summer was Arminianism vs. Calvinism. One night a few of us were out at the pizza joint, debating the above subject. All of a sudden two guys stood up nose to nose shouting at one another over some aspect of theology. One guy knocked off the other guy's baseball cap. They both stomped off and went their separate ways back to base camp. The rest of us just sorta looked at each other, stunned. For some reason, that memory came back tonight.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131774879444789692005-11-11T21:54:00.000-08:002005-11-11T21:54:00.000-08:00TMShockie,Thank you for proving to the world how l...TMShockie,<BR/>Thank you for proving to the world how little character you possess. For when you judge you have truly judged yourself. I don’t know if it’s to make yourself look good or to detract from the issue at hand, but I would prefer to stay on topic. Please give me a lesson in Christ-likeness in another setting.<BR/> <BR/>Brian, thank you for the warning –another shot at my age that should be done in private and only reveals the pride in your true motives. And no, its not arrogance, it’s actually exegesis. Again, excuse me for having a backbone. I wasn’t aware that tolerance is a spiritual gift. <BR/><BR/>Now, can we PLEASE get back to the main topic?Nathan Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14146269563760139652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131767568431804182005-11-11T19:52:00.000-08:002005-11-11T19:52:00.000-08:00Mike,Shall we go start our own emergent blog?Your ...Mike,<BR/><BR/>Shall we go start our own emergent blog?<BR/><BR/>Your fellow postmodern lip-dripper. LOL!Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14219449693919069408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131767333039348632005-11-11T19:48:00.000-08:002005-11-11T19:48:00.000-08:00Nathan,You have proven me a prophet. I guess mira...Nathan,<BR/><BR/>You have proven me a prophet. I guess miraculous gifts are for today. <BR/><BR/>If you feel up to it, I’d suggest you stop by TheBlueRaja’s place. I think there are lessons to be learned there.<BR/><BR/>I’ll leave you with the words of someone near and dear to most of us (hopefully you as well).<BR/><BR/>“The devil, things and people being what they are, it is necessary for God to use the hammer, the file and the furnace in His holy work of preparing a saint for true sainthood. It is doubtful whether God can bless a man greatly until He has hurt him deeply” - A.W. TozerRichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14219449693919069408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131766817879021042005-11-11T19:40:00.000-08:002005-11-11T19:40:00.000-08:00Your words drip with post-modernism, and I pray th...<I>Your words drip with post-modernism, and I pray that you will realize that truth can be known on this subject. </I><BR/><BR/>Lets keep the informal fallacies to a minimum if that would be okay. My only point was that the solution is not always "go do your homework" as you have insinuated. Simply because people have reached a conclusion does not make it true. Simply because lots of people have arrived at different answers does not make ALL answers true. Again, my sole purpose was to show you that there have been men who have done More study than you but still disagree.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447965246351592556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131766283673852462005-11-11T19:31:00.000-08:002005-11-11T19:31:00.000-08:00During my pre-Christian days, when I was working o...During my pre-Christian days, when I was working on my doctoral degree (in the mother science of Accounting) at a secular, state-school, Sodom-and-Gomorrah back during Ronald Reagan's time as president one of the key points that was constantly hammered home was the necessity of distinguishing the idea from the person who offered it for consideration. It was right, proper and expected for ideas to be ruthlessly critiqued. Indeed, it was this process that ensured that, at the end of the day, the best idea prevailed. But while we were engaging in brutal, hand-to-hand combat in the arena of ideas, we were never to cross over to critiquing the person who offered an idea for consideration. Thus, at the conclusion of a seminar on Friday afternoon, we could all adjourn to Nick's English Hut for proper refreshment and good, light-hearted conversation.<BR/><BR/>Now, what kind of ideas led to these fests of fur flying? Well, such eternally insignificant questions as why the stock market reacts differently to stock dividends than it does to equivalent stock splits.<BR/><BR/>On this blog we consider ideas of much weightier eternal significance, but as we do so, it might be a good idea for us to make sure that our critiques are focused on the ideas offered for consideration and not the persons (or should I say, persons behind the pseudonyms?) who offer those ideas for consideration. Given the nature of internet blogs, should we even want to, do we even begin to have sufficient evidence to form opinions about other persons who participate in Mr. Johnson's blog?farmboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05445789397476595536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131764719743518792005-11-11T19:05:00.000-08:002005-11-11T19:05:00.000-08:00Wow...tmshokie...great post! I agree. Let us debat...Wow...tmshokie...great post! I agree. Let us debate/discuss without intellectual arrogance which insinuates another person's "ignorance". We simply cannot imply something like that.<BR/><BR/>Anyone else notice how much the heat is turned up on the burner? <BR/><BR/>Steve states....I've noticed by the way many people prematurely criticize Phil's blogs that they seem to have difficulty discerning the difference between a mere general statement and a detailed, exegetical treatment that deals with the finer nuances of a given topic. <BR/><BR/>I don't think that many people criticize Phil's blogs as much as people enjoy a vigorous "discussion" of hot topics. Hopefully we all find it great fun and it sends us scrambling through our Bibles. I know that would be one of the purposes of Phil blogging in the first place. Iron sharpens iron.candyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088593538648596769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131763813065632032005-11-11T18:50:00.000-08:002005-11-11T18:50:00.000-08:00Well I certainly didn’t mean for my comments to cr...Well I certainly didn’t mean for my comments to create such a stir. I was just stating my opinion, just as others have done for the other side, and I am lambasted in public as being prideful –as if one can see my tone and see my heart-, uneducated, disrespectful, and quite frankly, too young to have anything good to say. Needless to say some of you should be ashamed of your words and method of communicating your opinion. <BR/><BR/>Mike,<BR/>No addition of verses needed. There is clear evidence from the pages of scripture that miraculous gifts had a purpose and would not go on forever. But it is not my desire to launch into a proof-text debate. I’m only encouraging others to stop looking for the magic trump text and get back to what the scriptures say about their original purpose. Also, there have been plenty of men who have done their homework and came to the conclusion that man can regenerate himself, but that doesn’t make them correct. Men have debated the trinity, the virgin birth, the substitutionary atonement etc for ages. That doesn’t mean truth can’t be known. Your words drip with post-modernism, and I pray that you will realize that truth can be known on this subject. <BR/><BR/>Brian, <BR/>I have no desire to debate experience and whether gifts have happened on the mission field. Clearly if experience was the measuring stick we would see a complete silence of these miraculous gifts in the church up until the 19th century or so. Also, the “obvious fact” is the testimony of scripture. There were only certain times in the OT gifts were used, and many centuries go by in scripture without such gifts. And yes, if one will take scripture as final authority, Calvinism cannot be refuted. Again, just because there are two sides doesn’t mean truth can’t be known. <BR/><BR/>TMShockie, <BR/><BR/>I respect your opinion of me. But to read my bio and point out seemingly flaws in my character (sin as you would say) is both inappropriate and judgmental. I would’ve gladly accepted a private email from you with these thoughts. Furthermore, post-modernism drips from your lips as well. God-forbid that I take a stand on something! God-forbid that I have convictions! Typical of the modern mindset to view my firm stance as pride. I am not up here saying everyone who disagrees with me is a heretic. I am stating my opinion and I welcome feedback from anyone who disagrees with me. I don’t know it all, but at least I have the backbone to stand on what I have learned from the scriptures. But because I have taken a firm stance I have been judged as disrespectful and prideful in front of all. And that public judgment of me says more about your motives than anything I can put on paper.<BR/><BR/>SDGNathan Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14146269563760139652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131763732264206632005-11-11T18:48:00.000-08:002005-11-11T18:48:00.000-08:00Let’s assume (and that’s a key word) that Scriptur...Let’s assume (and that’s a key word) that Scripture is inconclusive as to whether the miraculous gifts ceased sometime during the first century A.D. Given this assumption, is the continuation of the miraculous gifts necessary for God to accomplish His purposes, including the redemption of His elect? What about the elect in a country like India, is the continuation of the miraculous gifts necessary for God to reach His elect in India? To what extent can consideration of Luke 16:19-31 (The Rich Man and Lazarus) shed light on these questions?<BR/><BR/>In this passage both the rich man and Lazarus have died, with Lazarus being carried by the angels to Abraham’s side and the rich man ending up in Hades in torment. Here we get to observe an interesting conversation between the rich man and Abraham. The rich man, concerned that his brothers not end up joining him in Hades, makes the following request of Abraham: “I beg you, father, to send him [Lazarus] to my father’s house – for I have five brothers – so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.” Abraham’s answer to Lazarus’ request is interesting: “They have Moses and the Prophets [what we now know as the Old Testament, analogous to the Bible today]; let them hear them.” To which the rich man replies: “No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead [certainly a miraculous sign], they will repent.” But, Abraham replies: “If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead [if Scripture doesn’t convince them, then neither will a man raised from the dead].”<BR/><BR/>Given the above, it follows that Scripture is a powerful, effective weapon for waging spiritual warfare (Hmmm…that sounds familiar, was it maybe a recent topic on Mr. Johnson’s blog?), something that Paul was well aware of when he wrote: “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and of marrow and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12, ESV – Yes, I’m that old fashioned: I believe Paul wrote Hebrews.)<BR/><BR/>Now, where does this leave us: Is the Holy Spirit working through the proclamation of God’s Word sufficient for God to reach, redeem and transform His elect, or is the continuation of miraculous gifts also necessary (here “necessary” is a key word)? Given the original assumption of Scripture being inconclusive regarding the continuation of the miraculous gifts, is it prudent (another key word) for Christians to operate as if the miraculous gifts remain active? Given the asymmetry of the loss function, my answer is: No, it is not prudent to operate as if the miraculous gifts remain active. Assuming that the miraculous gifts remain active leaves the door open for the type of havoc and chaos that Mr. Johnson has documented when these miraculous gifts are falsely and recklessly used. In contrast, assuming that the miraculous gifts ceased sometime in the first century forecloses the previously noted havoc and chaos. Since God can accomplish His purposes through the proclamation of His word, removing the miraculous gifts from a Christian’s spiritual warfare arsenal in no way limits God’s effectiveness.<BR/><BR/>Continuing with the spiritual warfare metaphor, if a Christian can go off to battle with a Sword that will be sufficient to combat any enemy he may encounter, why should the Christian weigh himself down with superfluous weaponry? If God is sovereign over the minutest of details and Scripture is sufficient, then is it not prudent for Christians to operate as if the miraculous gifts ceased sometime in the first century?farmboyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05445789397476595536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131760002523847162005-11-11T17:46:00.000-08:002005-11-11T17:46:00.000-08:00Nathan,You are well on your way to being a TMS gra...Nathan,<BR/><BR/>You are well on your way to being a TMS grad (read your bio). I say that with sorrow. As a TMS grad I see (read/hear) in you the same venom that grips most of us who enter the precious gates of TMS. It is the venom of youthful arrogance. More plainly put, pride! There is one thing many of us do not have when we enter those hallowed halls and few gain while there. It is humility.<BR/><BR/>While I'm sure you're a sharp fellow, you are only 24 (again, reading your bio). The truth is, and this coming from someone cut from the same cloth, you don't even know what you don't know. <BR/><BR/>Am I passing judgment on you? Depends on how you look at it. I too was radically saved and immersed myself in theological study in my early twenties. I thought I knew everything – all you needed to do was ask me. Then I went to TMS at 30 and I learned that I had not even scratched the surface of theological study.<BR/><BR/>I hear passion in you. That is laudable. But as one of my TMS profs said (maybe one day your prof too) “beware the scolding tone of the young pastor.” <BR/><BR/>Study hard brother, love God and his precious truth with all your might and at the same time remember, great men who love God as much as we do have written counter views and they deserve to be respected, read, considered and evaluated as we would have them do to us (or those of their ilk).<BR/><BR/>Respectfully,<BR/><BR/>A humbled TMS grad.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14219449693919069408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131755628650000782005-11-11T16:33:00.000-08:002005-11-11T16:33:00.000-08:00I’m not going to start throwing proof texts around...<I> I’m not going to start throwing proof texts around to show that gifts have ceased</I><BR/><BR/>Well naturally. That would be quite a challenge unless we were to add verses to the bible.<BR/><BR/><I> but I will again encourage you to do a little homework on why the gifts were used.</I><BR/><BR/>With all due respect, I can pretty much guarantee that there have been pleanty of men who have done far more homework on this issue than you have (eg. Grudem). So, while this may sound nice on a blog with people of varying degrees of education, it would be foolish to suggest that the cessationists are those who have done homework while Charismatics are the ignorant folks.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447965246351592556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1131754132015194082005-11-11T16:08:00.000-08:002005-11-11T16:08:00.000-08:00Here's where the burden of proof falls on the shou...Here's where the burden of proof falls on the shoulders of those who insist prophecy is for today: where in the mix of false prophets, charlatans, and presumptuous folk, are there any reliable true prophets, who meet the biblical standards of reliable revelatory prophetic utterance? Can you point us to even one "prophet" who consistently receives "a word from the Lord" who has <I>always</I> been right?<BR/><BR/>If they are not 100% reliable and true, how can you claim their words are "fresh revelation"?<BR/><BR/>Also, what's involved in "regulating" the charlatans? Shall we stone Pat Robertson?Habitans in Siccohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13666311435942322569noreply@blogger.com