tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post112676248338161444..comments2023-05-27T03:17:19.681-07:00Comments on PyroManiac: Sometimes fellowship is better than a fight. Sometimes not.Phil Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00649092052031518426noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126831416354454782005-09-15T17:43:00.000-07:002005-09-15T17:43:00.000-07:00By the way, I am sitting here listening to a jack ...By the way, I am sitting here listening to a jack Hyles tape that one of my blog readers sent me. I need some help from all you Bible scholars.<BR/><BR/>How many years separated David and Ezekial? And how many years separated Ezekial from Paul the Apostle?<BR/><BR/>Can anybody supply the answers?Jerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234147722462126392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126821163674149592005-09-15T14:52:00.000-07:002005-09-15T14:52:00.000-07:00Here's a list of things that I see as necessary be...Here's a list of things that I see as necessary before we have any sort of understanding of the essentials of the faith (no specific order):<BR/><BR/>1. Presbyterianism- It's a big help in discerning the fundamentals to be able to learn from your elders, who learn from their elders in the presbyteries, who learn from their elders in the general assembly.<BR/><BR/>2. A Corporate and Covenantal Mindset - We have to humble ourselves to remember that the commands to contend for the faith and discern the fundamentals don't come to us as individuals, but to the Church and her leadership. This is a tough one for a lot of modern Sons of Thunder out there, who get all swelled up thinking of themselves as the last defense of Christendom alive today.<BR/><BR/>3. Generational Maturity - This issue is one that requires a Christian maturity that quite possibly takes longer than a lifetime to attain. Which is a real problem when one's children are hanging on to the faith by the skin of their teeth. A lot of us need to worry a lot less about the state of the Church and a lot more about the state of our own households.<BR/><BR/>4. A Repentant and Teachable Spirit - You can't start this discussion by imagining that you already know what the essentials are, and that your job is to either convince everyone else or separate. Get out of your circles more often. Read some books.<BR/><BR/>5. Kindness and Grace - Never have stricter fellowship standards than the Father in heaven. He's put up with a lot of wierd doctrinal ideas, and so should you. If you don't believe it, take an honest look at your own Christian past.<BR/><BR/>6. Faith in the Lord - It's His Church to build, and He's doing a great job. Unity and peace is a fruit of the Spirit, not a prerequisite.<BR/><BR/>7. Honor and Submission - Pray for an encourage your elders (especially your mother and father), believing that they know more than you do.<BR/><BR/>Matthew Hoover<BR/>mhoover at kurtzbros dot comMatthew Hooverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17871847706752420315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126814554097609102005-09-15T13:02:00.000-07:002005-09-15T13:02:00.000-07:00Thank you Phil for this post. As a very young Chri...Thank you Phil for this post.<BR/> <BR/>As a very young Christian, and as I think it is already in my nature to do this, I have thought about what are the important things in life and what aren't (I found I did this even before coming to Christ.). I am experiencing quite a bit and noticing quite a bit as well. As I am not well-versed theologically, but have an insatiable appetite to be so (beyond just knowledge, meaning having the knowledge of Christ shape my heart), I cannot fully offer something in realtion to what is more important than another. I will perhaps write more in depth at a latter time on my blog about observations. I will say this though, Christ is most important (we all know this), (but don't all do this) and the seeking of Him in diligence is something all Christians should be involved in and when I say seeking Him, we must pick up our bibles as well as look to the past and it surely helps being able to talk about these things with other Christians. <BR/><BR/>I'd like to ask you as I am not quite certain, what is the historical defintion of an evangelical. Can you point me in a direction for this answer, and perhaps you could offer your definition?<BR/><BR/>Thanks again Phil.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126811185094907332005-09-15T12:06:00.000-07:002005-09-15T12:06:00.000-07:00So maybe the answer to the problem is that the onl...So maybe the answer to the problem is that the only way for true unity is not by us coming up with what's primary and what's secondary. But by the Spirit working in the hearts of the believers to draw them together by having been given the mind of Christ and therefore creating true unity.<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'm wrong.Frank Martenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13962831912421867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126810877624350632005-09-15T12:01:00.000-07:002005-09-15T12:01:00.000-07:00For some reason while thinking about this, a verse...For some reason while thinking about this, a verse came to mind. And I'm not sure if this fits the situation but maybe it does...<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%202:14-16;&version=47;" REL="nofollow">1 Corinthians 2:14-16</A><BR/>"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ."Frank Martenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13962831912421867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126808223266882352005-09-15T11:17:00.000-07:002005-09-15T11:17:00.000-07:00I agree with CHH. Fundamentalists introduced issue...I agree with CHH. Fundamentalists introduced issues of dancing, hair length, dress code, and more dangerous, loyalty to the pastor as a primary virtue, a "soul winning" tradition that not only embraced a Fuller-Brush evangelization but *insisted* upon it, the concepts of "giving your life to the Lord" as an essential of sancitifcation, KJV-only, secondary separation, and the idea that scandall is relegated as a "local church matter" no matter how many people suffered from pastoral abuse. <BR/><BR/>Many Fundamentalists also did away with plurality of elders and reduced church government to a Baptist pope. Add racial segregation as an accepted practice at many churches and schools (not just BJU), and you can see that Fundamentalism often moves on cultural conservatism and not Biblical orthodoxy.<BR/><BR/>The problems that Fundamentalists have with others and the problems others have with Fundamentalism often have very bad, erroneous, and superstitious Fundamentalist traditions at their root. It seldom even approaches genuine doctrine.<BR/><BR/>When you consider the lack of accountability built into Fundamentalist emphasis on pastoral sovereignty and local church isolation, you find yourself ready to think that the sooner this movement does collapse, the better for everybody, including godly fundemantalists who need to get back into a biblical structure of church government.Jerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234147722462126392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126806762755789502005-09-15T10:52:00.000-07:002005-09-15T10:52:00.000-07:00I would identify with those whom Phil cited as try...I would identify with those whom Phil cited as trying "to improve and preserve the best remnants of the fundamentalist movement". As an Independent Baptist who rejects much of what the modern Independent Baptist movement has become, I'm labeled (by many within the movment as) a "compromiser" and "liberal." I find that many "modern" fundamentalist Christians find it far more easy to "separate" than go through the scholarly disciplines of "publish" and "defend". The result is a fragmentation that produces unaccountability, cultishness, heresy and simply an atmosphere totally lacking in scholarliness. It can be found throughout the movement as a whole in the vast majority of their churches, pulpits, Bible schools and seminaries.<BR/><BR/>Until fundamentalist Christians learn to quit separating over every little offense or challenge and start going through the process of scholarly, systematic and accountable exegesis, exposition and discussion, they will remain a simple over-reaction to the liberal drift of main-stream evangelicalism without hope of ever contributing positively to the correction evangelicalism needs.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps they lack the will or more likely, the skills, to offer something more substantive than a rhetorical attack or denunciation as they "separate" from the (perceived) errant one(s). But as long as we cut-and-run every time we disagree or raise an issue that needs to be studied and vetted, fundamentalist Christians will remain little more than a misunderstood and unwelcome nuisance on the whole of Christianity.<BR/><BR/>I would conclude by saying that there are some historically fundamentalist seminaries and churches and colleges who are trying to offer a sound and scholarly perspective. Sadly, they often get drowned-out by the cacophany of hyper-separatist rhetoric flung by the most extreme or are ignored because of the stereotypes assigned to them by those who would make historic fundamentalism more of a stigma than a position.Dan Burrellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09680207882528653121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126804980266667982005-09-15T10:23:00.000-07:002005-09-15T10:23:00.000-07:00I have always struggled with Paul's statement in 1...I have always struggled with Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 11:18-19<BR/><BR/>"For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,for there <B>must</B> be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."<BR/><BR/>It is like Paul is saying contention is inevitable and maybe it is. The question is his choice of words for what will be recognized by the contention: who is genuine. The Greek is <I>dokimos</I> which means approaval after examination. <BR/><BR/>Paul could have just as well said I hear there are questions and debates among you which is necessary because examination produces the truth. The problem is not in the questions, the debates, or the examination; it is in the lack of humility, the unwillingness to admit error, and the need to be right above all, even when you are wrong.<BR/><BR/>We need to remember the admonition of the writer of Hebrews 13:18.<BR/><BR/>"Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things."<BR/><BR/>and Micah 6:8.<BR/><BR/>"He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God."Beyond The Rim...https://www.blogger.com/profile/07510076064880450438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126802533733792522005-09-15T09:42:00.000-07:002005-09-15T09:42:00.000-07:00Just curious, but when we begin to label doctrines...Just curious, but when we begin to label doctrines as "secondary" or "tertiary" don't we in many ways tell our people "these things are not important?" <BR/><BR/>For instance, if we were to say to our folks that we are not going to quarrel or divide over Lordship vs. Free Grace are we not telling our people that the Gospel isn't that important, you can get to it however you want?<BR/><BR/>I can see the benefits of marking some theological distinctions as "secondary" so as not to seclude ourselves from the greater realm of Christendom, but my larger concern is that when we do these things we are in danger of communicating to our people that they really don't have to care about such issues. <BR/><BR/>When our people don't care about the issues of theology and doctrine, be it primary or tertiary doctrine, then our churches will prove weak and ineffective. At least that is what I think... am I wrong?Jeremyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10214901410467256904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126793503685381322005-09-15T07:11:00.000-07:002005-09-15T07:11:00.000-07:00One benefit of fighting heresy is that the Church ...One benefit of fighting heresy is that the Church was forced to clarify its understanding--and communicate those clarifications. <BR/><BR/>We are behind enemy lines and controversy will always plague us...<BR/><BR/>I think a good starting point for us today is to teach a solid view of the Trinity, the Person and Work of Christ, and the Innerancy of the Scriptures. These three basics would cover a lot of the "secondary" issues as well. (In a roundabout way, the doctrine of the Trinity affects our understanding of a woman's role in the church...[the economic relationship between the Father and the Son is reflected in the relationship between the roles of men and women...])<BR/><BR/>Coming from a fundamentalist background, I wish that those in the movement would read Romans 14--kind of like a daily vitamin. There are areas of conscience in which every man must be fully persuaded in his own mind. These areas are definitely not in the crucial doctrines and absolutes of morality, however. But the freedom in "doubtful disputations" is important.John R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00494719223133966785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126793052149981292005-09-15T07:04:00.000-07:002005-09-15T07:04:00.000-07:00It's interesting that the first things which come ...It's interesting that the first things which come to mind when I think of the dumb issues Fundamentalists have thrown tomatoes over have little or nothing to do with doctrine at all (think of dancing or long hair) or are based on incorrect doctrine on their part (i.e. attacking Calvinism, "Lordship salvation," or "John MacArthur's bloodless cult").<BR/><BR/>The problem with the Fundamentalists I have run into isn't that they have good doctrine but are picking at secondary doctrines, but that they just have plain bad doctrine themselves.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00781523237313565560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126792288574139012005-09-15T06:51:00.000-07:002005-09-15T06:51:00.000-07:00Have you read Dr. Mohler's article on Theological ...Have you read Dr. Mohler's article on Theological Triage? Here's the address.<BR/><BR/><BR/>http://www.albertmohler.com/commentary_print.php?cdate=2005-07-12Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126789978607504722005-09-15T06:12:00.000-07:002005-09-15T06:12:00.000-07:00We are and have been wrestling with an aspect of t...We are and have been wrestling with an aspect of this at Bethlehem Baptist Church (John Piper is preaching pastor there) in regards to Church Membership. The issue for us, in a nutshell, is whether or not to allow into membership those who hold to a paedobaptistic view. <BR/><BR/>Based on the variety of opinions expressed in church meetings as well as the gallons of virtual ink spilled throughout the evangelical blogosphere on our proposed amendment, figuring out what is primary and what is secondary is not easily determined. <BR/><BR/>Maybe we can think of all this wrestling as a fight TO fellowship.<BR/><BR/>BTW, Ed, when you use big words like <B>Doctrinal Taxonomy</B> please give us a defintion. At first I thought you wrote <B>Doctrinal Taxidermy</B>, which of course would characterize a number of preachers who though they have the form of Godliness have denied its power... give me a call soon.marchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10158311614104904363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126768417323971512005-09-15T00:13:00.000-07:002005-09-15T00:13:00.000-07:00I think plenty of Christian scholars are grappling...I think plenty of Christian scholars are grappling with this issue, but their thoughts trickle slowly into pulpits and pews. <BR/><BR/>The theme for the 2001 Evangelical Theological Society national conference was "Defining Evangelicalism's Boundaries." Several fine papers were given that looked at the issue biblically, theologically, and historically. David Dockery gave the plenary address on drawing biblical lines. <BR/><BR/>I know this issue is also discussed at length by Dan Wallace in his classes at Dallas Seminary. I have a file full of notes taken as we grappled with a doctrinal taxonomy in the mid- to late nineties. I hope one day Dan will publish his seasoned thoughts on the matter. He's a darn good thinker who's solidly reformed, exegetically savvy, and pastorally sensitive.J. Ed Komoszewskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18111893389217932360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126767779084130942005-09-15T00:02:00.000-07:002005-09-15T00:02:00.000-07:00I agree with Phil that there are primary and secon...I agree with Phil that there <B>are</B> primary and secondary doctrines, but the problem arises in defining and agreeing on what these are.<BR/><BR/>Another question to consider is whether these primary and secondary doctrines can change category over time. I know there are certain essential doctrines that will always remain primary, but what of certain secondary doctrines? Can not the prevailing conditions of the day (i.e. the prevailing area of attack) cause a secondary doctrine to be promoted to a primary one? I'm thinking here of a postscript written by Dr. Peter Masters in a book written by David G Fountain titled 'Contending For the Faith' -a biography of E J Poole Connor (ISBN1-870855-32-9). In it Dr. Masters suggests that the old formula for evangelical unity/seperation is no longer sufficient being based on doctrinal matters alone, because a major attack on the church today is directed at matters of practice also (particularly in the area of worship).Ephemeral Mortalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11192318495950849715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12723103.post-1126765705954794132005-09-14T23:28:00.000-07:002005-09-14T23:28:00.000-07:00Dear Phil:Very good post. The balance of wisdom i...Dear Phil:<BR/><BR/>Very good post. The balance of wisdom is much needed today. However, I do agree in part here with Dave C. Being a faithful Berean (Acts 17:9-11) does mean that we measure all things by the authority and veracity Scripture--not just the perceived essentials. Paul even encourages us in 1 Thess. 5 to "test all things and cling to what is good."<BR/><BR/>I appreciate you brother... I fully agree that discernment and charity is necessary today by all of us.<BR/><BR/>Guard the Trust,<BR/>CampiSJ Camphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15844201288864307481noreply@blogger.com